My biggest problem is concentration - Speak Up requires a level of concentration that I cannot offer it during the day (when I'm at work). My day job, although not terribly taxing, does require quite a bit of attention, couple that with the level of discussion on Speak Up and I find that I lurk often and post very little. When I speak of level of discussion, I do not mean that it is incomprehensible or daunting, but rather that I feel the need to take time in responding and that I want to review what I write. That is sometimes time that I do not have, hence my glib responses, which then make me feel like I'm not really contributing.

So that's not really a complaint about Speak Up that should be fixed, because what seperates SU from other design forums is the higher level of discussion.

What I should do is think about the topic, and then post after I get home, when I do have time.

Thank the Lord! I've been waiting for this topic (Not really, but I am glad someone posted it). I used to really enjoy the discussions and topics that were posted here regularly. I even visited the site a couple of times a day to check in on where the discussion was leading.

But, these days, I barely look at it at all. I haven't commented on any topics in a while either. I feel like each discussion starts boiling down to the same issues over and over again and I just don't have the time to invest in the topics that have been up. I have also noticed a very pompous and haughty attitude throughout the discussions. It's one of my biggest pet peeves when people puff up their chests and act like they are God's gift to design. Insert some humility into the discussion and it will move forward in a much more productive manner.

I was really longing for an avenue of discussion like this, because I am in a very isolated creative environment. I wish we could discuss more design problems, layout problems, font problems, etc. There is definately a lot of room for business discussions and problems within the design community.

If I were to really make a suggestion it would be to focus more on discussing design issues, things we like, and bits of wisdom (experience) that will help others out. I would like to see less of the rants on the state of the design community (dead horse) as well as how wonderful design god A is or how sucky pitiful designer B is.

I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that while this is a great forum for discussion, its still very difficult to build personal relationships. But that's an online issue. I would like to say I appreciate how much hard work Armin has put into building this site up and keeping it running.

I'll tell you what's wrong with SpeakUp... I missed the Debbie Millman conversation. Damnit! I assume I'm one of the few people here who have actually worked for her, and I regret being absent for that particular episode.

I would not believe she has ever danced the macarena.

But to respond to your post, I think brief, off-the-cuff comments are as welcome as long insightful diatribes. Let's be frank... how many of us actually have time to pore over every post? The best I can usually do is what I do with catalogues... flip and close. So in this instance, brevity is god.

And on that note...

-R

i could live my life without the "bad logo usage" technique-centric discussions, but then again i've been doing this shit for a decade now and am kinda bored with technical issues. and they seem kinda small-minded. maybe that's just me.

Seriously, don't hold back any comments. This is Speak Up, so we really want to hear what you have to say. I won't be offended or anything. This site is as much as mine as it is Rebecca's and Debbie's and Tan's... well I wouldn't give too much power to Tan, that would be kind of catastrofic (Love Ya Man!).

We already went through one phase of growing pains and it was tough — it's time to keep building and moving on. I won't apologize for where the discussions have headed or how much we have "puffed our chests" (I'm also banging it like King Kong right about now) because there is no other place on the web to turn to for this level of discussion. I have noticed a small decrease in readership, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

>PK: i could live my life without the "bad logo usage" technique-centric discussions

>Steven: I wish we could discuss more design problems, layout problems, font problems, etc.

It's hard to please everybody, but we try. We really do.

Anyway, let it rip — tell us everything.

Sorry...just one small posting, then I'll leave.

As people comment on subject matter and content for S-U, it might be interesting to compare it with content and participation in another forum, like AIGA's design forum.

Compare/contrast what is really missing? Ok, bye.

I'll preface my comments by saying that though I've been visiting this site on a near-daily basis since it launched, this is my first actual post. That's mostly because its a bit daunting to voice one's opinions in this particular community. Yes, partly the attitude, partly a question of "what do I have to contribute, anyway?" (The second part is a roundabout compliment on the calibar of the community.)

Even so, this site has become my first stop for my daily fix of graphic design goodness. For me, it is an important community link because I'm a freelance designer and, as such, have limited access to other folks involved in the same field.

As someone who's very involved in design as "business", though, I would likewise like to see more posts/discussion addressing business and technical issues, rather than just theory/commentary. The theory is invaluable, but the other two aspects are my bread and butter.

Give me insights and information I can use tomorrow when I go to meet my client.

Just my two cents... and now I'll go back to lurking. - liz

Thanks for the topic, Rebecca--it's an excellent question.

I wonder if there is a way to go about improving Speak Up in tone (the pompous/macho/boring problem) without getting too specific about what's discussed. There's certainly enough days in the year (with new topics coming along nearly every day) to discuss everything from the technical to the business to the general design-lifestyle stuff.

But how to be more inviting? How to encourage people to be less shy, or intimidated? It's easy to say "Oh there's nothing to fear, it's all just talk" but I'm a pure lurker on metafilter and I know it really isn't easy to wade out into the rushing river.

Maybe someday we could have a topic that's not a discussion at all, but where everyone who reads the site that day "signs in" with just their name, or a name, and maybe their location--just to get everyone to post a bare-minimum thing to break the ice. In the old days of AOL (uh, 1994), we had the constant "Age/sex" check.

more posts/discussion addressing business and technical issues

I've been thinking about this as well, since I, too, am a freelancer/sole practitioner. As much as I enjoy sitting in my home office, petting my cats, surfing the web and, oh yeah, designing, I do need that dose of design community interaction.

I'm going to try to put together a business topics or two for us to discuss, since I'm learning the ropes as well. Look for it next week probably.

I have been reading the posts here at Speak Up for a couple of months now. I enjoy the tone and the level of most of the discussions here, and I also like the variety of topics that are covered.

That said, there really doesn't seem to be much interaction within the topics, outside of what seems to be a small group of people who clearly know each other well. A great many postings seem to go unnoticed, while banter and in-jokes fly around them. (I concede that this is a condition which exists in discussion boards in general, and is not just a Speak Up problem.)

I like this place, and will continue to read the postings voraciously while occasionally making my own contributions. At the same time, I think it couldn't hurt to "break the ice" somehow and get more people to talk to each other.

First of all, I don't think there's anything wrong with Speak Up.

but if it's only valuable for a small segment of the profession, then it undermines its own purpose.

I disagree with that. A web site (or anything, for that matter) shouldn't try to be everything for everyone. There's a critical mass with most online communities. Too few and it fades away. Too many and it chases people away. It's a very tricky balance, of course, but I don't think Armin needs to strive to make this *the* graphic design site on the internet. There's plenty of room for more and diversity and choice is always a good thing.

Except when trying to order from a menu. Then I usually prefer less choice.

At the same time, I think it couldn't hurt to "break the ice" somehow and get more people to talk to each other.

Well, there's that saying...on the internet, no one knows you are [insert whatever]

In otherwords, dive into the conversation. I really don't think too many of us have ever actually met each other.

My little quibble is that because of the blog structure of the forum, some conversations that may have continued have been pushed down in favour of new ones, and sometimes it's hard if you haven't visited it for a day or two, to go directly to the previous conversation you were interested in.

But other than that, I think this is a fantastic forum. Very informative, etc.

However, I would LOVE a "best of..." section where Speak Up! highlights its best/most informative posts to date. For example, the sneaky tips on How to Apply Bad Logos are excellent! But what if I need to look at it two weeks from now? I suppose I could press "search" but it would be nice if there's just a category of really useful posts so not only do I find what i'm looking for, I'm more likely to find other things I could find useful. :)

THE BAD...

The blog format is great for light conversation and passing ideas but does not encourage conversation of postings over a couple days old. It is hard for some people to jump on a moving train. if your stats are similar to my personal blog stats less than 1% of the daily visitors will leave a comment.

The text heavy appearance seems sort off odd for a design site. Word it is far and away the biggest eye magnet of the page. Perhaps postings could sometimes include graphics instead of links to graphics discussed.

Male domination. Perhaps perpetuated by what i believe is a very masculine visual appearance (colors, geometric rigidity, cold and lacking emotion). The domination probably also somewhat accounts for some of the egotistical (unintentional, I believe) comments which in turn have recently led to comments in which people are trying to sound more knowledgeable than they are.

All design all the time can be tiresome. occasional lighter topics distantly related to design are ok. topics like; which NFL team has the best uniform design, what is your favorite letter character and why, if you were a font what font would you be (no Tan, you can't be cooper black!), what is the most cliched piece of art director clothing/apperal you own?.

I hate to bring this up, and unfortunately can not site specific examples, but the site feels print biased. I don't know why, just subtle vibe it exudes (similar to the unproveable print bias vibe of AIGA).

Where do i order my speak up t-shirt and oven mitts? This is the only blog not using cafepress.

THE GOOD...

Word it is a great way to encourage interaction from those to timid to write.

An open arms community, I post comments almost daily, but have never met anyone here in person. I felt part of the community almost immediately. My opinions have been both praised and challenged, I like that.

The intelligence level of the community. Rarely does anyone throw out a one line opinion with nothing to back it up. A problem that plagues many online communities.

Sena said the inside jokes can sometimes be exclusionary, i can understand that but those small things are what really tightens a community and builds relationships. a double edged sword, I suppose. I mean, you can't tell me bustin' Armin's ass for his unhealthy man crush on Sagmeister that prompts gratuitous praise around every corner.

I understand the amount of effort that goes into a site like this. It can be overwhelming.

Whew, sorry, I wrote more than I planned. I love critiques!

I am a freelancer & work from home so visiting for me is like being around other designers and peers that are not my cat. This is good. Kitty gives a nasty crit everytime.

I have been reading & chittering on this site for about a month now, and the air around here is indeed kind of pompous or egotistical. So many interesting big picture discussions though. I know it may be hard to talk big picture without coming off pompous. I think its really hard to find very many peers out there who are passionate enough about design to give some of these topics some serious thought, let alone take the time to post opinions. That and they are tooooo darn bitter to care. Very very bitter.

So Speak up is good in the sense that it stirs thoughtful design discussion. yay. Speak up is not so good because I think that there is alot of hot flaky air (can air be flaky?), and that maybe some design discussion turn into a bit of a foo foo holier than thou kind of attitude.

I guess what I am saying is that I see myself over here growing my little garden, drawing pictures, being passionate about design but still blowing bubbles off my balcony. While others here could very well be driving sleek black cars, getting in the back door at MOMA because they KNOW somebody for this SHOW, and smoking expensive cigarettes. Can't relate to it, never have, never will.

I think I just explained how I feel about this forum based on how I would draw it. heh. funny.

I also want to say that it must be piles of work to keep this site all functioning & exciting. So despite my negative comments - I think everyone who contributes/maintains/whatever is super. Hokay? hokay.

7 weeks ago I was searching for an article on the web and came upon Speak Up. To my complete surprise and utter horror, I found that I was the subject of one of the discussions. The contents of said discussion were somewhat pompous, somewhat macho, somewhat inaccurate and�somewhat true. I was both embarrassed and intrigued by this public condemnation. It took me about three seconds to decide to post and in the days the discussion ensued I had to either defend or deny my position. It was one of the most fulfilling design experiences I have had. It made me stick to my guns (or retreat), decide how important a subject was to me (or not) and it held me accountable for what I had said, as well as what I do, why I do it and how I do it. That is pretty formidable. And astonishing. And rare.

Since Felix was the one that started the whole conversation (and didn’t seem to want to get off his high horse), I wrote to him and asked if he wanted to meet. Despite my being considered a she-devil by the Speak Up community, he immediately agreed and we spent a magnificent, drunken evening talking about design, dogs, Maryland, courage, his pride and joy, our competitors, friends and enemies. It was amazing.

In that short seven weeks, I have been posting regularly. I do this because I believe in it and I want to. What I am trying to say is this: the beauty of Speak Up is that YOU HAVE THE POWER. No one can stop you from posting, saying whatever you want to and you don’t have to watch your potty mouth. If you are afraid to post or intimidated, that is not the fault of Speak Up. Unless being held accountable for what you are saying scares you. Look into your own heart and decide why you are really afraid to write. It might have something more to do with yourself than Speak Up. But try and post anyway. It will be good for Speak Up and it will be good for you.

If you want to meet people here, write to them. You have the power. As I said, I have already met Felix. I had dinner with Armin and Bryony last week. I was going to be in Chicago and wrote to them and invited them out. I am planning on seeing Dave W and Eric L in the coming months. I just reconnected with Rick. You can make of this forum whatever you wish. There are no rules. And no one holding you back but yourself.

As far as the pompous discussions�so what? What do you want to read? Self-effacing drivel? If something happens to be too pompous, challenge it. If the content doesn’t interest you, don’t read it. There will be another topic shortly—or write to Armin and suggest one. What I find interesting in this particular discussion is that in the 15 posts so far, the very same discussions are being considered either too boring or getting requests for "more of them!" So it is obvious that you can’t possibly please all the people all the time and make everyone happy. I think there is a good mix of topics and an obvious desire to continually improve, embrace, challenge and uphold our collective voices, ideals, ethics and morals. No, it is not perfect. But nothing interesting is, and the flaws make it more interesting and gives us stuff to strive for.

Bottom line: Bravo to Armin for creating a provocative and powerful tool for communicating and sharing in such a short time (Speak Up is not even one-year old). Bravo to Rebecca for asking a tough question. Bravo to the readers for making this happen. Keep making it happen—only you can do that.

I love your spirit Debbie.

But I think your confidence and attitude is rare, and unattainable for many lurkers in our audience.

That's not to say that your call to action is not worthy, but that it's perhaps a little optimistic for many.

I seem to hear 'pompous' a lot here, and it honestly surprises me. Maybe that's because I'm one of the biggest culprits -- who knows. But I think that in our verve and heat of passion during discussions, some of us tend to be more aggressive in validating our opinions and pov. It becomes more of a heated debate rather than a nice chat over tea and crumpets. And if this is what's perceived as pompous, then I'm not sure if there's a fix.

Because that's what I love about SU -- that it's not always timid and politically correct. I wouldn't continue to visit if it was -- I have enough of that in at work. SU is a place where I can release.

But I do agree with your suggestion Debbie. If any of you out there think a discussion is going pompous, all you have to do is post and say so. Use a fake name like Martha Stewart if you'd like. It's a good thing, as she'd say.

I would like to address the "relationship" theme that has come up. In my case it might be different because, as Sampotts so eloquently told me, I'm the "Big Daddy." What this really means is that I get the incredible opportunity to meet all the authors (even if it's just by e-mail) and really get to know them. That was the main reason of creating the Authors' Profiles so that everybody can see a face and read a little bit of their story and somehow relate or something. I have only met three of the authors (Sam, Debbie and Chris) and I can't wait to meet the rest, but we already have a very strong bond we have created here. I have met the most interesting people since starting Speak Up and I'm sure some long-term friendships will come out of this. But enough of this happy family stuff — if you don't approach others you will never build relationships. We are all here, we all have e-mail and we are happy to talk.

RE: Pompous attitude

Maybe, just maybe, we do sometimes take stuff too far. I don't think it's a bad thing, if anybody wants to exploit their hard-earned knowledge and let rip a big, fat, long-winded rant on any topic I highly encourage that, we should all be so lucky to be able to get such honest opinions from other designers. I am very proud of the "level" the discussions have reached, it is definitely not my intention to be "everything to all people" because we would then have a watered-down (think of it as Amstel Light ) version of the site, heck it would be something like the HOW forums and when that happens I'd rather shut this down.

Call us elitist, pompous, long-winded, macho, self-indulged designers if you want, I would never trade that for anything. I don't want this to sound too defensive, it's just how I see it.

RE: Male domination

Rebecca tried to address that when she jumped on board as an author. It was a bold call to women to post and contribute, and what did that do? We never posted any sign outside the door that said "women not allowed." And, what exactly does macho mean? We don't go around degrading women or saying boobs all the time. I really don't see how we alienate women from the discussions.

RE: Print Bias

I say that with pride. One of the reasons I started this site is because there was an extreme lack of Print discussions on the internet. Mostly because Print Designers don't have the tools or knowledge or desire or whatever to start an on-line forum. The main focus of Speak Up will be print and not web. Most authors have a print or branding background and that is no coincidence, it was very much on purpose. Darrel and Chris take care of our web discussions and that is as much web stuff as I would like to see here. I'm glad I got that out in the open. At the most, web is only 10% of the discussions here.

> I mean, you can't tell me bustin' Armin's ass for his unhealthy man crush on Sagmeister that prompts gratuitous praise around every corner.

Dude, shut up. Or I'll tell Stefan.

>This is the only blog not using cafepress.

Cafepress, I've tried it, and it's not up to my print-biased standards.

I stumbled upon SU on a sad rainy painfully slow day at my new job. Where I sat questioning my decision to take on a new job that was not a creative challenge for me and ultimately would not teach me much. I sat for over an hour and poured through the whole SU site. I have never been so re-juvinated and pumped up about our craft. SO THANK YOU SPEAK UP!! I now visit often to get me through the lulls and to motivate me more in my quest for design excellence in my own new business that I have started. What an amazing sounding board you have made. Even the "pompas" stuff can lead to a good laugh ever now and then! And god knows we all need a good laugh! peace.

> We don't go around degrading women or saying boobs all the time.

yes, but we talk about gas a lot.

I asked my wife, who's a designer also, why she doesn't post. And she also said that the discussion were very male dominated. I pinned her on some tangibles, and never got any.

I don't think it's sexism. Many of the male authors/postees on SU are married or otherwise domesticated. So I don't think it's proverbial crotch-grabbing.

Maybe us guys should talk more about our feelings. Or talk more about our reproductive health and sex life -- graphically, sparing absolutely no details. Or our weight. Or new diets. Armin, are you guys thinking about having kids yet?

Ok, now that was sexist. Sorry.

> I mean, you can't tell me bustin' Armin's ass for his unhealthy man crush on Sagmeister that prompts gratuitous praise around every corner....

"..is'nt funny." were the two words I must have left off there, but I think it was understood. Be aware, I am 230 lbs of twisted steel and sex appeal, I think I could take Stefan's scrawny little ass.

>Cafepress, I've tried it, and it's not up to my print-biased standards.

Agreed, even a web designer can agree to that.

Rebecca, what do you think? I'm sincerely interested, since you started this thread.

First off, I think the folks behind Speak Up and all the contributors should be commended for their work and dedication.

I'm not sure I'd use the word "pompous" to describe the discussion — perhaps rarified might be more accurate. The discourse definitely leans toward the more theoretical and academic aspects of design. Though it's often interesting to read, it's not terribly relevant to my professional life. And so it's tough to justify investing a lot of time.

But that kind of discourse is necessary for the profession, even if it's not for everyone. Change happens on the fringes and then moves to the mainstream, where folks like I dwell. The nature of the discussion just lends itself to a more — insular, perhaps? — community.

Also, a more practical concern: time. A slow day before the holiday means that I can read and craft a response in a somewhat timely fashion. Often, by the time I run across a posting to comment on, the discussion has kind of run its course. I realize it's the nature — and one of the strengths — of the site to move quickly, but until I can rationalize spending billable hours here, I'll probably keep showing up too late.

RE: Print Bias

I say that with pride. One of the reasons I started this site is because there was an extreme lack of Print discussions on the internet.

I knew it! Armin is out to get us pixel pushers. ;o)

To be fair, one of the reasons I like Speak Up is because it does talk about graphic design more generally...including print, which is something I still like and enjoy talking about.

Darrel and Chris take care of our web discussions and that is as much web stuff as I would like to see here.

(OK, so, if you want more web stuff, send ideas to me or Chris ;o)

I have to agree with Darrel, this site does tend to speak to all designers. However, if I have read Armin's comments correctly, it really wasn't supposed to. No where on the site is there a mission stating the intent i.e. the need for better a print design forum online.

All kinds of designers come here for community, which maybe is a problem for the site: what is the focus, who is it for? I don't think that has been thought through enough, and that may make all the difference.

There aren't really any good design forums, period. When people find this site, I think they've found an online home finally and latch on, no matter which media they focus on.

Maybe more promotion would bring a wider and hopefully more varied readership? I have trouble explaining the URL to people. I would have to say the URL is one of the things wrong with Speak Up, but what can ya do?

I'll tell ya what's wrong: I buckle down at work (finally!) for a coupla days, and when I come back there are all these interesting new discussions that I am forced to spend an hour catching up on. This is bad for productivity. It puts our whole capitalist system at risk and I, for one, don't like it.

But seriously, I really love Speak Up as it is. Sure, there are often discussion threads that bore me (software battles: zzzzzzz), but I just don't read them. I enjoy the egotistical ranting, the in jokes, and the rarified atmosphere, although at times it does get a bit heavy. When that happens I just wait a few days and things usually hop back on track. Since I have little time for continuing education, the seminar-like nature of this site works a reasonably satisfying substitute. Although I have not corresponded much with folks off-site, I feel like I am developing a familiarity with some people that feels almost like friendship, community for sure.

I must read this site 3-4 times a day. It has inspired me in many ways, and I'm counting on you all for more of the same.

Hi! I ducked and ran after posting this topic but everyone has been so constructive. As for what I think, I like Griff's format so I'm going to appropriate it. Thanks man.

GOOD:

Its mere existence. I can imagine how much I would have loved Speak Up when I worked as the sole designer in an aesthetically-challenged workplace, and the more pompous the better. It's good to know some of you lurkers are, as they say, having your needs met.

Also good: Armin. He gets more shit than anyone around here, and he runs the site, and he posts on every single topic, and he welcomed the idea of soliciting criticism. Keep on keepin' on, man.

BAD:

The discussions have a tendency to descend to the level of a pissing contest. Off-topic posts are tacitly encouraged which results in threads that, as someone mentioned previously, all end up discussing the same tired topics.

The pissing contests tend to get a little sententious. People don't ask each other questions; they dig in and hold forth. It would be great if the discussions were more like discussions and less like debates.

I say this not as a person who's intimidated, but as a person who wants to see things develop past the point that we seem to always reach. People get so threatened by challenges and caught up in validating their own opinions that there is no safe space for exploring new terrain.

To reiterate what Griff said, too much heavy shit. One of my favorite archived posts is "Show us your desk." My perception is that we contributors don't post that stuff as much anymore because the site has taken such a big picture direction. To those of you who are into the idea: I'm on it.

Finally, I'm not really sure what to say about the preponderance of dudes on this site. It's definitely a widespread online issue not unique to Speak Up, but I will say that every time I refreshed the site and got a tits or crotch Word It, I cringed. It's clear that the creators of those images assumed a male audience—which isn't exactly a "no girls allowed" sign, but a female crotch adorned with electrical tape is not the most inviting thing in the world to the gentler sex. There's obviously way more than that going on, but it's the first thing that came to mind.

>Also good: Armin.

Aw shucks... thanks girl!

Although I do thrive on shit.

> No where on the site is there a mission stating the intent i.e. the need for better a print design forum online.

But there is one! It's at the bottom on the right side, entitled About Speak Up.

I really have enjoyed all of the interviews. I know that they are a lot of work, but I do wish that they would come out on a more regular basis.

I also wish that there was a little more focus on design history; at times it seems like we are only talking about the latest design headlines. Perhaps there could just be open posts on a designer, say William Dwiggins, with a little intro and then people could supply links, thoughts, reflections.

There was a while where Fridays were filled with lighter posts about desks and design firms in various cities. It was a nice break. I am still waiting for the biz card show and tell.

Oh, and a spell checkr would be nice.

As far as URLs are concerned:

speakupdesign.com

speakup-v2.com

spkup.net

sp3akup.com

5peakup.com

A new, shorter TLD name would be nice.

As far as content is concerned, for me, it's kind of hit or miss from day to day. That's mostly because I'm not trained in Graphic Design. Just because not everyone gets the obscure references doesn't mean they should be eliminated. At the same time, someone who doesn't get the joke shouldn't be mocked or chastised (not that I have any rememberance of that happening).

I don't expect Speak Up to be tailored to my personal tastes and experiences, and on those items that I don't connect with, either I skip them or I learn more about them. That's the way a good communtiy site should function, and I feel we have a good communtiy site here.

I wanted to post this earlier but didn't have the time. Now that I'm finally getting around to it, after 31 other posts I wonder if it will even be read. I agree with Lea and griff that the blog format takes focus away from topics as newer ones are posted, and, for most topics, the discussion thread has run its course after a day or so. As bram said, it's hard to justify spending working hours crafting replies. Often, when I get to a point in my day where I think I have time to sit down and concentrate on Speak Up, I feel as though posting would be a worthless pursuit because the topic I was interested in has already been thoroughly discussed or else someone else has made the point I would have made. I'm not saying this is a bad thing necessarily, it just means that there are others out there who seem to have much more "disposable" time during the day than I do.

What may be a problem is that this means the discussions tend to be monopolized by the same individuals. I think Speak Up can seem cliquish. There are inside jokes, the tone does seem somewhat exclusionary. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with this except that I've noticed posters who aren't "regulars" can be ignored. Pair that with the perceived macho and pompous tone, and maybe individuals who might have valuable insight into a particular topic are being turned off and turned away. As rebecca said, the discussions also have a tendency to degrade to the level of pissing contests. Who wants to read that? I don't. I suppose, debbie millman, I could call the individuals on it every time it happens, as you suggest, but I don't have the patience or energy to do that. How about let's just bring the level of maturity up a notch, huh? That doesn't mean Speak Up can't still be a fun, constructive outlet.

I have also refreshed the site just to see the different Word Its pop up. I've also noticed the "tits" and "crotch" Word Its. I wouldn't be as put off by this issue, either, except for the fact that only certain ones seem to make it onto the main page. I don't know what's up with that, but it does seem as though only a few of them are in heavy rotation and there are others that never show up on the main page at all. Huh.

I should really get back to work now. I want to thank rebecca for bringing up this topic. And, as annoyed as I can get by the site, I want to thank Armin for creating and maintaining it. I stumbled upon Speak Up earlier this year when I was working from home for a couple of months recovering from an illness. It was one of the things that kept me from feeling out of touch with the design world at that time. Thanks for that.

I don’t pretend to know all the answers and I don’t want to sound as though I am preaching, but I do feel that this discussion is only skimming the surface with of couple variables of a very complex equation.—Christopher May, from the Diversity of Design discussion

This is something that happens a lot when we talk about the "hard questions": people feel defeated by the complexity of the subject and appear to suffer exhaustion from it. Is this a problem with the blog format in general? I know I have this problem with IM: as soon as anything remotely complicated comes up, I'm picking up the phone.

RE: pissing joke

In my defense, and just so we are all clear, this was not a gratuitous pissing joke. It all started in the Tough Questions discussion with Graham's excellent post. Just so you have a context:

designers are the most conservative group of people i've come across. most of them couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, pull a whore in a brothel. their lack of interest and passion about film, music, painting...

So, when he claimed to be as good as Rand (in the Rand discussion,) I thought I would throw it back at him. This is just one more example of the "insider jokes."

Also, thanks for all the comments so far, they have been great and very constructive I might add. I'll respond to some other issues later in the weekend.

I just have to say that this Friday's discussion postings has been the most heated, passionate, and amazing single day's worth of blog action that I've seen since finding SpeakUp. And on the day before a holiday too. Damn impressive!

It's like we all woke up and ran out of coffee or something.

What an awesome place this is.

Oops...today is Thursday. I meant Thursday's postings.

Time to start the weekend...

Thanks for pointing out the mission statement, Armin, but I would like to point out that it mentions nothing about your favor for print. I'm okay with that though, I would much rather talk about design in general than specifics about a given medium. If most of your posts are print related in nature, so be it, I think you have added enough authors that contribute to a diverse discussion arena.

I also have to agree with Jesse's statements about posting, which is the most frustrating part of this site for me (and beyond the scope of human control). I always craft a reply only to have someone else post a similar idea as I go to preview my statement. I hate that. Eventually, I have a watered down contribution, which often I choose not to post all after several similar replies.

rebecca:

but a female crotch adorned with electrical tape is not the most inviting thing in the world to the gentler sex.

the queers around here don't get it either. at all. i - as a queer - am actively encouraged to not put booty imagery in my work because it makes a lot of people uneasy to be forced to think about it. therefore, straight boys: knock it off.

either that or there's gonna be some homoerotica going on, like it or not. fair's fair.

speak up is the one design talk/chat site i've come across that inspires me. it is open and honest, and the nature of the discussions here is something that was previously the remit of design magazines and journals-but here it's unedited, responsive. i like misunderstanding (armin-i never ever at all even slightly implied i think i is betta than rand . . . although . . .), i like the thoughtful words, the differences in the way people write (being 'pissed' in the u.k. is to do with alcohol, and 'couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery' is a colloquialism implying ineptitude-but you knew that). there's a lot of stuff here i don't understand, but it intrigues me. in the end, it's down to the contributors-the only thing that stops anyone from speaking up is themselves.

"in the end, it's down to the contributors-the only thing that stops anyone from speaking up is themselves"

exactly my thoughts. In the end a community is the sum of its parts.

This is my first post but I�ve been around for a few months and I agree that Speak Up has been a very inspiring discovery, it�s great to find people that are passionate about design and willing to talk about it, laugh about it, do something about it. I can�t tell you how much I�ve learnt these last few months, not only about design but also about many things like american (corporate) culture, I previously had not a clue about (I�m from Spain).

I only have two (small) problems with SU. First, as many other people here, the lack of time to actively contribute. Second, being spanish I find there�s a heavy "american bias" , logical since most of the contributors are american, and it would be great if it had more of an international perspective, but then again it�s up to us (international readers) to start changing that (BTW, Graham rocks).

PS: Am I the only female that isn�t shocked or bothered by the inclusion of sexual imaginery in the word its (I will even admit that I quite liked James Victore�s controversial piece in a shocking kind of way)? must be that we are a lot more used to it over here.

"Why dont you design queers find something else to do with your time. Chatting about type and ethics and logos on Speak Up? Get real."

I love general annonymous comments.

Things is, on Speak Up, you dont encounter too much trash talkin. And maybe thats a bad thing. The heated, passionate, idiotic discussions are what keeps me posting.

Too bad all this work is starting to pile up...

i - as a queer - am actively encouraged to not put booty imagery in my work because it makes a lot of people uneasy to be forced to think about it. therefore, straight boys: knock it off. either that or there's gonna be some homoerotica going on, like it or not. fair's fair.

Man, good point! I didn't even think about the queer side of things. I, for one, would be down with homosexy Word Its.

I am a recent SU visitor. I reside in Asia.

From an international audience perspective, i tend to agree with beatriz’s comments...

The topics are great and so are the discussions... but i find most very "americas-centric" and the regular posters rather cliquish. I have posted maybe twice.

But it does feel a little like "crashing somebody's birthday party". Haha.

It might be a good idea to invite more authors from regions in the international arena to put more context and relevance to Speak Up's growing? international audience. But only if thats within Speak Up aims to be an "international" forum.

Or if i may suggest... a public Author's zone where... enthusiasts may intiate their own topics...(monitored by Speak Up of course)

Lastly,... Maybe the SpeakUp landing page could just be a listing of the latest/hottest threads with just a 1 line summary... as opposed to what it is now... that way, previous threads that are only a day or so old aren't "case-closed". Pictures accompanying topics might have it's advantages too.

Xie Xie.

> but a female crotch adorned with electrical tape is not the most inviting thing in the world to the gentler sex.

> therefore, straight boys: knock it off.

Ok, about the Word Its. I just have to air my piece and then I'll leave again.

The first thing I have to say is that politically correct censorship will be the death of this forum. I almost guarantee it.

Time and again, many of us have stated that the most endearing aspect of SU is the raw, unedited, unabashed viewpoints that are presented here. Without a doubt, it's the primary reason why I spend so much time here myself.

Secondly, wih the exception of a few truly hateful freak postings, I don't believe that any of our postees or authors intend to offend anyone -- women, queers, Jews, Mormons, Canadians, whatever, whomever. Challenge yes, but offend, no.

But if you're inadvertently offended, then either a) get over it, b) respond back (like Rebecca did with her Word Its parody), or c) just ignore it and go to another discussion blog.

Sure there might be some raw words or things said or done in questionable taste now and then. But I think that the opportunity to expand the level of discourse by allowing anyone to speak their mind or express themselves far outweighs the need for adult supervision and banal politeness.

For god's sake, you guys make it sound like this is like the Howard Stern show or something.

> Am I the only female that isn�t shocked or bothered by the inclusion of sexual imaginery...must be that we are a lot more used to it over here.

Thank you, Beatriz! Yes, I do believe that we are 100% more uptight about sexuality in the US than the rest of the freaking world. This is just one more example.

Ugh! People, there are no closed threads. At least as far back as August 2002. (Which apparently is too time-consuming to go back and read anyway.) I just posted to the oldest thread I could find ("Chase") to prove it's still open. It seems pretty clear to me that the "most recent comments" list on the right side of the home page means the topics with the most recent comments (not the most recent topics period), and that the "archives" slightly below that means archives, but as pk would say, maybe that's just me.

Secondly, how is it going to help Speak Up to say that you don't have time to read it? As charming and persuasive as Armin is, I think the 24-hours-in-a-day thing is pretty well set.

I ate a lot of delicious grilled meats yesterday, so my blood is extra red today! By jickity!

I'm totally in favor of a greater international presence here---especially because the web is a great way for us Yanks to see the work that's being done elsewhere. I'd love to know what firms are doing the good work in Portugal or Paraguay or Prague or wherever. But I don't think it's fair to expect Speak Up to be all things to all nations, any more than it's reasonable to expect the NY Times to report local Los Angeles news. But there are 2 remedies for readers in other countries: Submit ideas for discussion (located low on the left side of the home page--you'll have to scroll but you can manage it), or send things to me and I'll post them (as for example this old thread of New York firms) in the spirit of what's going on in the great big world. You can even write the intro and I'll post it as you write it (and if you write it in Czech I might just post it in Czech, just to start a little shitstorm).

Oh yeah, and another thing. About the Word Its. A while back Armin mentioned to me whether he should be more choosy about which ones to put up, and I was glad that he decided not to be selective based on his personal judgment of which ones were good. It's democratic and fair and good that everyone feels uncensored and free to design what they want.

That said, just because you have freedom doesn't mean you should do something lame or just plain bad. Too often "personal expression" is defended on the basis of it being free expression rather than on the merits of the expression itself.

Sorry to single you out, Tan, but for example, I don't buy your explanation above simply because I don't see why you chose a female chest. If the message was vulnerability, why not your own chest (a la Sagmeister)? This I would buy. So you see, it has less to do with political correctness than plain old design. James Victore's doesn't make much sense neither---Luca is his son and I assume that's his wife. I saw it and I was like, Wha?

I do agree, Tan, that if one is offended by something, "a) get over it, b) respond back, or c) just ignore it and go to another discussion blog." It seems to me people here at least should be just as offended by design as by content. So the homosexy stuff better be good, pk!

Time for more responses.

RE: Sexual stuff.

I don't encourage it but I accept it. When I asked Victore to submit something I knew it was going to be shocking — and he delivered. No big whoop really. Would I post a male posing in the same manner? If it was what the author of the Word It wanted, I would. Just remember, neither Tan's nor Victore's were explicit. There was no genitalia harmed (or shown) in the production of those Word Its. So, just keep it in an R rating, no NC-17 here.

RE: Print bias

>I would like to point out that it mentions nothing about your favor for print.

You are right Max, when I say Print I usually mean Not Web. The focus is more on traditional Graphic Design and Design in general. Print is not the main focus, sorry for the confusion.

RE: International Topics

Well, this is hard. When Speak Up started I had all the intentions of making it more intl. I even had an italian author (but it was a trainwreck waiting to happen and it did happen). Obviously me and 99% of the authors being in North America gives the site its very American inclination. To be completely honest, Internationalization is not the main goal, this doesn't mean I'm not open to try and grow it, it was just never the goal to reach. If the right people come around to help bring some intl. flavor to Speak Up I'll be more than happy to give them the opportunity. Like Graham.

RE: URL

Let me ask you something: if we had www.speak-up.com and it would simply be an entry point that would redirect you to www.underconsideration.com/speakup_v2 would that be better? Would it be easier to refer people to it? Or just more confusing. There would be nothing under www.speak-up.com except a redirect to what we have right now. Think about it and let me know.

RE: Timing

Really, guys, I can't control if somebody posted what you wanted to say before you. I can't control the speed at which threads grow. Sometimes I don't even notice when an author posts a new topic and the comment count is up to 15 already. I just dig a bit deeper and try to contribute something new — if I have nothing to say I will at least challenge what has been said, or give Tan shit. (damn it, enough with the inside jokes.)

>it just means that there are others out there who seem to have much more "disposable" time during the day than I do

I think the people who post more often don't have "disposable" time either. They find ways to make room for it. I know I do, if I spend 30 minutes writing a reply, I'll stay 30 minutes extra at work. No big deal really.

RE: Some other stuff

>Perhaps there could just be open posts on a designer, say William Dwiggins

You mean something like this?

Lee, some of your ideas are pretty good, I'll definitely keep them in mind for the next upgrade/update

>"Why dont you design queers find something else to do with your time. Chatting about type and ethics and logos on Speak Up? Get real."

Felix, where did that come from?

And, one more time, THANKS for all the comments. Now, all those who spoke badly about the site will be banned... no, not really.

What I've never understood about women is the tendency to feel like they could never succeed at a male-dominated activity (or at least what is perceived as a male dominated activity.)

If a bunch of guys are talking trash about something, why would you feel like you can't contribute? It's different if you don't want to contribute (or don't have anything to say) but, I certainly think that we (umm, guys) would welcome any sort of alternate viewpoint. I would.

On the other hand, it seems like there might be less females writing because there aren't so many posts that deal with specifically female issues. I have no idea what those would be, but maybe one of the female writers out there could think of something.

Also, I would like to see more posts about practical aspects of design - the stuff about dealing with clients really intrigues me. I think it's because I'm a student and haven't had to deal with any of that stuff yet.

I really do like the "big picture" type of posts, but I think that's why some people seem to be saying that the discussions always end up sounding the same in the end - because when people talk about the big picture, they tend to speak in generalities - and there's only so much you can say about those sorts of things.

What I've never understood about women is the tendency to feel like they could never succeed at a male-dominated activity (or at least what is perceived as a male dominated activity.)

I doubt many women who encounter Speak Up feel that they could not "succeed." I think it might be more like this: imagine you stumbled across a very lively design discussion website whose participants were nearly all female, some of whom clearly had a strong foothold in the discussions, many of whom were well-established in the field—moreso than yourself. Imagine they're all like Debbie Millman. You're not acquainted with any of them, and when you post something on-topic your comment is often ignored in favor of a continued string of in-jokes you don't get. You probably wouldn't get hurt feelings or cry or feel dejected, but you might lose interest. I think the mere presence of women in the discussions, even if they disagree with me, mitigates that problem.

It's not a great analogy if you assume, like I do, that men and women for better or for worse are not analogues of one another. But it's Saturday and it's the best I can do.

It's an interesting analogy because, for the most part, you've described exactly how I feel about this board. Although for some reason I haven't lost interest yet - I've stopped caring so much when I'm ignored, though.

Dear Armin: It would appear the death of your web site has been greatly exaggerated.

Well, if not greatly, than at least excessively.

The clique-ishness has been off-putting to me at times but I think that is consistent of every online forum, at least in the beginning. As stated in so many ways before, suck it up and participate. You can’t be in the game without getting hit by the ball at times -- or something.

On a technical level. The site is a bit sprawling. Mostly my complaints center around “how could I better survey the site without having to scroll.”

And I’d so very much like to have a refresh button on the threads, for those hot debates.

�

“On the other hand, it seems like there might be less females writing because there aren't so many posts that deal with specifically female issues.” — luumpo

should I be reading this as inflammatory? I think the critique has been more along the lines of tone of discussion and less about topics. The whole venus/mars thing. But then I suffered horribly in couples therapy.

Let me know if I’ve misread you.

�.

And now, thanks to Rebecca, all I can’t stop thinking of a planet populated by Debbie Millmans. Sigh.

>It would appear the death of your web site has been greatly exaggerated.

Well, if not greatly, than at least excessively.

Huh? Is it dying? Shit, I thought we were only critiquing it.

>“how could I better survey the site without having to scroll.”

Nothing personal Eric, but don't get me going again on how lazy people are on the web. Scroll, just scroll, dehydration might be expected but the loss of life has been rare due to excessive scrolling. Don't get me wrong, I think you have a point, but still...

mmm... so much for grammar. better as, "I can’t stop thinking of ..."

So, just keep it in an R rating, no NC-17 here.

jesus. give me a little credit. i do have some decorum. "gay-themed" doesn't mean "porn."

lastly...why are people claiming SU is cliqueish? i don't remember any of us rushing anybody new out the door. i see that as a perception coming from someone who sees themselves as an outsider or assumes they aren't welcome. nobody posting here has ever tried to be exclusive. well...not that i saw, anyway.

I'm very impressed with the lack of flame-wars on SU. Very impressed, indeed. Now, I don't read every single post's comments, but I've experienced very few trolls here.

The only thing I'd mention is that for a 'community' and 'discussion' site, the fact that the comments pop open in little windows is very frustrating. I'd rather have the comments on the same, main page. I often have to resize the comments window all the way to be equal to the original window so that the comments don't feel squished into a space that's smaller than they require.

Man, don't you people take a day off?

> Sorry to single you out, Tan, but for example, I don't buy your explanation above simply because I don't see why you chose a female chest. If the message was vulnerability, why not your own chest (a la Sagmeister)?

Ok Sam, I chose that image cause I had it from another project I'd done (a biotech annual report). Yeah, if I'd sat down and poured my soul out in a design piece, I probably would've not used that image. But since I had it, and it sufficed the message I had in mind -- I used it. Is it my best piece of design done in 15 minutes? No.

But you know, I didn't think there was anything in bad taste either. It was a naked, unglamorous, female chest photo. There wasn't a nipple to be found either. Hell, you see 10 times that much skin in any issue of 50 magazines in the grocery store. What are we, 10 year olds now? Are there librarian nuns visiting this site that we need to be careful of offending?

If you don't buy into the piece, that's cool. Dis the design and give me shit on it like a designer.

But don't use it as leverage to extoll the evils of sexual objectizing and offensiveness. Because that's just petty, politically-correct bs.

As to the cliquishness. When I hopped on the site 2 months ago, I had no idea who anyone was. I jumped right into a heated discussion that I felt strongly about and haven't looked back since. I still haven't met any of the authors, but I seem to talk to some of you more often than the people I work with.

In those two months, many new people have easily joined the group. Some regular postees have become less frequent. There doesn't seem to be any more or less exclusiveness to anything. If you want in, just start typing. It's honestly that easy.

I don't think anyone's being ignored here. There's not another conversation going on somewhere else where we conspire on who gets acknowledged and who doesn't . That's just silly. If you want to reiterate a point and would like a response, then type louder and more frequent. Don't be insecure about it. We're all freaking geeks here -- there is not a table for the cools kids to sit at.

Yes, there are frequent inside jokes (give me shit again Armin, and I swear I'll boil your stuffed bunnies). If you don't get it at first, keep reading and eventually you will. It's well worth the effort -- some of them are lame, but some of them are funnier than hell.

The familiar banter is also a very healthy sign of unprentiousness, unguarded and mutual affection and respect, and a good sense of humor from the group of faithful postees. There's ab-so-lute-ly nothing bad or regrettable about any of those qualities. In fact, the more the merrier.

Man, don't you people take a day off?

I think this is the first thread in awhile that's really kept going over a weekend — and a holiday one at that. That's pretty cool. What's really great is to see a lot of new names entering the fray. I hope you keep it up. Without the influx of new opinions and ideas, this place will get stale very quickly. That alone should give you impetus and all the qualification you need to add to the mix.

Armin, is it too much of a pain in the derriere to put everything at www.speak-up.com? What's the advantage of redirecting to underconsideration.com? The simpler the URL for the entire site the better--at least that's what they teacheded me at Internet school. No? Yeah. I dunno. Maybe it don't matter.

By the way, left-over red-white-and-blue cake: still good on July 5.

depending on the frosting, it may be good next july.

and as for 'laziness' i don't know that the sprawl exists in present form to the benefit of anyone. needless scrolling is almost as bad as purely decorative Flash. i'd been on here for a while when you, Armin, pointed out to me that there was a suggestion box. And i'd need diving lessons to find the "about Speak Up" link on the bottom right.

when i'm at the office and supposed to be doing things other than surfing Speak Up (or watching Krull late on a Saturday night) i'd like to be able to survey what's going on without having to find my place again after refreshing.

and, yeah, i'm a bit lazy.

>I think this is the first thread in awhile that's really kept going over a weekend

I rarely post on the weekend for some reason. I probably wouldn't today if if wasn't for some tedious homework Armin gave all of the authors.

Any of you take an eye out or get temporarily incapacitated with backyard fireworks? Hope not. But share with us if the story's funny.

Sam -- glad to hear you're a brethren meat-atarian. mmm...smoked brisket makes good leftover too.

You know what? July the 4th is like a summer Thanksgiving.

> watching Krull late on a Saturday night

Oh man. I secretly love that movie. But could the guy's pants be any tighter? And the hot damsel in distress went on to do a bunch of Bryan Adams videos. That movie takes me back to high school....

eric...man, go home. It's a holiday for pete's sake!

>Armin, is it too much of a pain in the derriere to put everything at www.speak-up.com?

Oh, you have no idea! New host, reinstall MovableType, just thinking about it gives me the chills. Maybe for the next upgrade. Don't rule it out yet. But don't hold your breath either. And finish that cake!

>Maybe it don't matter.

It might matter, in terms of people being able to remember it more easily, but in reality nowadays all links appear as words, like this, so you just click and go wherever it takes you — no matter what the name is.

>"gay-themed" doesn't mean "porn."

You are scaring the librarian nuns away.

Point taken, Armin. I thought you might have some free time. What the hell was I thinkin? I just meant when I say the URL to people, it's unclear. I just end up telling folks to Google "speak up."

I know, I know---talking is so analogue.

Eric:

should I be reading this as inflammatory? I think the critique has been more along the lines of tone of discussion and less about topics. The whole venus/mars thing. But then I suffered horribly in couples therapy.

What I intended was something like this: perhaps the tone of discussion seems so male-oriented because the topics tend to be male oriented. I imagine that if there was a topic about male/female color palettes, we'd have a much different discussion than the "I think the remax logo is the stupid" discussion.

I think, actually, what I've now discovered is that discussion of graphic design is usually couched in male terminology, and if we want a female perspective, we need to do some "affirmitive action" to get females to talk more - that is, we need to intentionally come up with topics that females will care more about.

I have no idea what those might be because I'm a stupid male. I hate having male guilt.

i've been reading speak up for about 2 months now, and this is my fist time posting, and actually most of what i wanted to say has already been stated, but i feel like this topic is a good place to start posting.

i have to say i agree particularly with bram's comments - the majority of discussion here tends to be more about theoretical state-of-design-type issues, which are certainly valid and interesting, but for those of us who are not in a position professionally to affect any sort of change in regards to our company's clients or type of work, this type of

discussion can be off-putting, and after a while can seem to degenerate into repetitive dead-horse-beating rants.

personally i prefer the business/promotion focused articles and discussions because i feel like i am more likely to get something of value out of them professionally. i think that steve liska's articles have been great, and the living la vida solo discussion that is just starting could develop into a great thread.

By the way, on behalf of no one specifically, WELCOME and THANKS to all the first-time posters:

Liz

Sena

Beatriz

Xie Xie

Nat

And everyone else who didn't mentioned if it was their post.

Haha.

Xie Xie is "thank you" in Chinese.

The name was Lee.

Thanks Sam. Happy 1st B'day to you.

Have another popsicle on me.

I am so white.

Thanks, Lee. Mmm. popsicles....

why are people claiming SU is cliqueish? i don't remember any of us rushing anybody new out the door. i see that as a perception coming from someone who sees themselves as an outsider or assumes they aren't welcome.

I was only stating my impressions. I wasn't saying that any of the participants were trying to get newcomers to leave. As for being an outsider, yeah, I am an outsider, isn't everybody here, in a way? This is a discussion forum where anybody from any place can join in, right? Nobody is central, except for maybe Armin (as administrator of the site).

>Nobody is central, except for maybe Armin (as administrator of the site).

Everybody is central, we are all a big, happy, disfunctional family.

Okay, everybody is central. I stand corrected!

Perhaps the tone of discussion seems so male-oriented because the topics tend to be male oriented. I imagine that if there was a topic about male/female color palettes, we'd have a much different discussion than the "I think the remax logo is the stupid" discussion.

Women are interested in all kinds of topics. Whether a logo is good or bad is not a particularly male-oriented subject; female designers and art directors face the same design challenges as men do.

rebecca:

True. But as you said before, if women tend to get ignored in discussions, then perhaps there need to be female-themed topics to keep this from happening, if Speak Up is to get more diverse in the gender of its participants. That's all I'm saying. Not that women are somehow inferior - just that sometimes we (white males) need to be careful about how we treat women (and all other people that are different from us.)

if women tend to get ignored in discussions, then perhaps there need to be female-themed topics to keep this from happening

I hear you, but I think it would be simpler if we could collectively try not to ignore people in discussions. Or something. I'm not crazy about where this is headed, because I feel like people getting "ignored" is not the problem exactly. Agh. Out of my depth.

I think this is the first thread in awhile that's really kept going over a weekend.

...which is nice. sometimes i feel like i'm the only person with a broadband connection. not everyone uses the web only as a work tool.

True. But as you said before, if women tend to get ignored in discussions, then perhaps there need to be female-themed topics to keep this from happening, if Speak Up is to get more diverse in the gender of its participants.

actually, debbie milman's doing a fine job as a Woman In Charge here. these topics are kind of gender-indiscriminate, anyway.

i've been basically encouraged to represent my own gender/sexual group, so if anything, i think that opens the door for everyone to simply ignore their own classification and start posting like mad. in fact, i'd like that.

i really think the reticence of some posters is based entirely upon who they are as individuals, not who they are as biological entities.

People getting ignored is maybe not the problem so much as people feeling ignored. I do not think anyone is actually ignored--all comments get read by a lot of people. That should be pretty clear, I hope. But it's just the nature of the medium that you might throw out a question and no one picks up on it. Please don't take it personally--that's all I can suggest.

On the other hand, some things (certain debates about certain naked ladies, ahem) might do better to be ignored sooner, before we're banging our heads against our monitors.

Having just read this topic today, it certainly reinforces the too-much-to-read-while-at-work aspect. I'm sure there were some good thoughts, but I started whipping along after the first 6 or so posts. Obviously, this is not a fault of Speak Up. Maybe people here think too much, and write the same way?!

For the record, I like the bad logo discussions - they're funny. We can't be all serious, or it makes for a rather pointless escape from work, right? Also, I like naked ladies, but that's another topic :)

One thing that would bring me around more - graphics news, i.e. when the latest Adobe app has been released, or a new line of Digital prosumer cameras is introduced, maybe just as a sidebar. I recently switched to PC, but when I was a Mac user visiting MacNN or Railheaddesign.com every day, I was always in-the-know as soon as something new was out. The PC-centric news sites just don't cover those things in a timely manner. But then, that's probably not an avenue you want to take this down (more tech than design).

Lastly, lots of us (well, me anyway) work at a dad-gum high resolution (1600x1200 on a 17"). Frankly, the text is REALLLY small, which usually doesn't bother me, except when there IS as much to read as here. And increasing the font size in Explorer doesn't change anything - must be a style sheet issue. Anyway, headache city. Nonetheless, your hard work here is obvious, and thanks.

Helpful hint: if text is too small, use the text zoom feature in your browser to increase it. It works on Mozilla for PCs and should work on all Mac browsers.

I just discovered Speak Up through the recent article by Rick Poynor on the Eye Magazine website. I think you guys are doing a great job, and I spent all evening yesterday browsing through your monthly archives. This weblog is definitely an interesting read, and it's already among my favorites, alongside Typographica and the Typophile forums. Personally I don't see any major problem, only the usual small ones common to all community weblogs. If you think the atmosphere here gets sometimes a little too 'macho' or the discussions too heated, you should try running a weblog for gay men (as I do with Tom, my foreign language blog). A handful of queers can be much more infuriating than a bunch of graphic designers, believe me. In my case they're Italian also, and that makes things only worse (I'm half-joking, of course, as obviously I'm gay and Italian too ;-). So, please keep SU just as it is, and count me in: another designer with some english-as-second-language typos and bad grammar. Please be patient ;-) Ciao from Milan.

i think it is very good that somone thout of this site i am a van of your club so culd you send me aney thing may be a boek or a riest band or anything

Connor, sorry, no books or wrist bands. How about buying a pretty poster though?

I will say this..compared to other design

forums I have been to...many times the discussions

degenerate into sophomoric name calling and

immaturity.

With SU, even heated debates are usually done

with class, respect, witt, and humor.

For that I am grateful..SU can't be everything;

I am content with the intellectual outlet it

provides on issues regarding Graphic Design.

My main disappointment is that Speak Up does not reflect the current state of design it just comments on it from the sidelines. If I were a student I’d think from Speak Up that the profession was all about politics, shams, (winking), and an us vs them mentality which for someone out of school equals inaccurate info. The subject matter which is re-hashed constantly under different headings ie award winning, students staring in the field or logo criticism never grow beyond the superficial. It’s a “bummer site” (that’s how most people I know refer to it) were not much is positive or interesting in terms of real insight into what is a very inspiring and exciting industry. I mean I guess Armin is “smart” for “thinking of it” but isn't the win it’s relevance to modern design criticism? or is Speak up just a general interest site with design as an overlay? where people who agree on everything spend their time agreeing on everything. Of course they allow some “well known” participants to come off the mountain now and then for some back patting and fatherly advice but other than that Speak Up isn't pushing much originality in what is a lacking forum in our field:

interesting design insight by people who are pushing the way we interpret messages.

It’s seems the idea of Under Consideration should be changed to “Un Consideration.”

>If I were a student I’d think from Speak Up that the profession was all about politics, shams, (winking), and an us vs them mentality..

MIMY — just looking at our current 'recent comments' section, I see a crit/discussion about an Olympic logo and the spec process which produced it; a design book review; a student essay on the ethical responsibility of designers; a thread about children's books; a thread/critique about the rebranding of VISA; a discussion about design criticism; and another discussion/critique on the rebranding of a comic book icon.

That's a pretty diverse variety of very interesting industry topics. So I don't see any merit in your complaints about the relevance of topics that are covered on SpeakUp. Can you expand on your malaise?

As to the "bummer" assessment — I believe that the occasional negative comments and attitudes of postings on the site is actually, and sadly, a true reflection of the community. SpeakUp has always billed itself as the site where you can let your guards down, and truthfully say what you want to say. You don't have to mind your manners as you would on AIGA's forum, nor do you have to be a bloated design theorist as on another popular site. You can be yourself — a person who loves design, but doesn't need to always be politically-correct nor arrogantly over-intellectual.

Most people here are real — the type of people in the industry that I work with and socialize with. People I'd want to have a conversation about design with.

And I find that incredibly original and refreshing.

Nancy: Speak Up does not reflect the current state of design

I'm not sure if the goal of Speak Up is to be a refelection if design's current state: there's plenty of resources available both online and in Print if that's what your looking for. Rather, as a forum style site with participants involved in all levels of the industry - from students through Principals - it's more a dalogue in motion.

"Re-hashing" subject matter is more so the relevance of issues such as spec work, social responsibility, and design criticism across topics. What's interesting in this is to locate the reoccuring themes in the entries and their comments, and put that to use as individual designers. Of most interest in this is witnessing a particularly heated discussion where individual commentators are adding to or influencing other commentators.

Sure, there are egos involved and the apparently pointless comments: for an open forum Speak Up amazingly has comparitively little.

From the sounds of your comments here it really seems you're looking for an elite think tank forum. Good luck in your search.

elite no

authentic yes.

damn, I'm glad that I am finally aware if the precise definition of authentic as well a humble ctitique of why speak up is not so.

Guess I'll close my browser and reread Tschichold 3 or 4 times, followed by a brief revisitation of Derrida.

so why bother even visiting speak as well posting? after all, clicking the link is your choice.

Nancy--you really don't think we are authentic? We certainly might not agree on everything, but I truly thought you kinda liked it here.

Give it up gregor. Nancy's ire goes way back.

That's too bad Nancy, because I thought you really added an interesting voice to the mix when you've joined. But I think it's completely hilarious and ironic that you're the one accusing SU of always being down and negative.

I mean, come'on — can't you just let bygones be bygones? We've all moved on....why still all the animosity?

Give it up gregor.

yes, I've seen the history. I think I'll step back and have a drink:

6 ounces Illustrator,

2 ounces Fontlab

4 ounces Old English (recommended for authenticity and anti-elitism)

yes, it was me Nancy Mazzei .. I designed the "new vh1 logo' just wanted to let you all know

ahh, thatNancy.

For the record, we all love to dogpile and dogpile we did on your VH1 logo. If it makes you feel any better, I for one, have changed my mind and now admire the mark you made. THats what right about Speak Up.

Remember the the Millman dogpile? One fo the worst and most vicious. And look at us all now. Ahh. Good Times.

You know what's truly great about this site? It's not the inspired debate, or the willingness to include theory and philosophy, not even the skewering of logos we secretly wish we'd been able to design - what's truly great is that in three posts you can go from the person who designed the vh1 logo to a guy that spells the word “wrist” R—I—E—S—T. With a sales pitch in there to boot. I love this country.

Jeez, none of this has to do with the vh1 logo I actually thought it was great blog and in a recent presentation used the hardest points of that blog as part of the presentation which was really cool and very funny. Really, it would bug me more if that's where anyone thought my "comments" were coming from I'm totally fine with the way the whole thing went down.

I'm talking about evolution on Speak Up maybe that wasn't clear.

Insight, background...that is not “elite” it's essential and it's something that's lacking in the way most people talk about design or justify why they do what they do. I’m not asking for a poem here I’m asking for information, ideas, reasons why something more...

Also, Debbie (hi!), I do like it here I mean why spend time contributing. I was just putting my thoughts out there like everyone else. Authenticity doesn't come easy and casual conversation can many times be confused as "authentic." I’d rather opinions not opinionated do you see where I’m going?

and frankley maybe this isn't the forum for that kind of talk, I'm cool with that. But please if we want to discuss let's not do the “it’s because of the vh1 logo thing” it's just a cheap shot and it's not true.

Nancy :> Insight, background...that is not “elite” it's essential and it's something that's lacking in the way most people talk about design or justify why they do what they do.

I would venture to change "most people," to "many (not most) designers."

Certainly, I'll agree with you that Insight and background is of essence: in any discourse on design that comes through years of exerience in the industry.

As Speak Up's popularity has increased commentators really do represent a broad spectrum including, as I'm sure you're keenly aware of, students, less-than-partime-kitchen-table-designers, entry , junior, and senior levels. That's a good thing I believe.

I personally don't witness this as a flattening of the value of any given thread on SU, and in many cases the plurality of perspectives adds value.

Given that many comments are not thesis bound, but are written in snippets - when waiting for a file, a client approval or revision, etc. (much like I'm doing now -- waiting for an approval) - it seems that a given commentator's mutiple contributions in a single thread combine to give a larger view of their perspective -- and as I mentioned before, it's always quite interesting to see how one comment can influence the thinking of another commentator.

As a result, in many ways, SU is much like a conversation as much as a forum can simulate that: filled with interuptions, sometimes emotional & sometimes not, opinions and opinionaed, a lightining bolt of inspiration and yes, a perspective that I may have never considered. It's ceratinly not devoid of higher level thinking. Frankly, nothing is more authentic than a conversation, where communication is direct, less pre-meditated and rolling off the tongue in direct response - or in this case the keyboard.

We're all very capable of one liner's tainted with sarcasm or cynicism and not so quaint witicisms. But then, it's also not so hard to move beyond that.

if you dont like how SU has become try going over to DO to get your "reasoning" design swerve on.

and good luck with that...