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The Emperor’s New Tailor

“Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! How well it fits him!” All who saw him exclaimed.

“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. One whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people.

- From Hans Christian Andersen ‘The Emperor’s New Suit’

Recently, our beloved Armin Vit commented on Emigre’s Rant, and he did so at the threshold of the beast itself, Emigre 65: �If We’re Standing on the Shoulders of Giants�’. Presumably he was invited to retort based on the veracity of the arguments presented in the book club section here. When I first heard about this, my immediate thought was: “starfucker”.

I softened. Would this genuflection be compelling or repulsive? I was certainly intrigued.

On review, I didn’t get the pink belly of Mr. Vit that I had braced against. There were teeth there.

So, in the �glass house’ spirit of this forum I thought it was time to open Vit’s comments to our review. If not us, then who? It is in this spirit that I invite you to consider the following.

“Cause what I got to tell you is more powerful than a head on collision going 90 miles per hour on a one-way street. Are you ready girl? I’m a motherfucking pimp.” — Rosebudd, in �American Pimp’

Vit comes out swinging, or err� kicking. The tone of his response is quick and sharp. The language throughout is easy and at times gutteral. He sets up the document as an honest overview of how he experiences the design community as a “young pup” — and a bit of a street fighter at that.

Nodding to the old guard, Vit is critical of designers of his generation but unapologetic for Clinton Bubble that got them there to begin with: a sort of “crap for sale” philosophy regarding the late 90s sweatshop aesthetics. Over a few pages he manages to visit the question of what is vacant in our present community and points us towards some heroes that he thinks are heading in the right direction.

There is much within to be vetted and the economy of his essay wasn’t such to follow through on some of the larger questions. To follow is a breakdown of some of the bigger points.

Part One: the “Problem”

The problem is getting to what the “problem” is. The format that Rudy VanderLans provided in Rant allowed everyone participating to invent their own grievance. However wide the arguments, a general response to the book could be summed up, and was by Vit:

“I also felt like I was being ganged up by cranky old designers (not my words) and had nothing to defend myself with. For a moment I even thought that I deserved such beating,that I was and am, part of the “problem.” �We did not question our motives as designers, we simply churned out stylistically correct work.”

The “problem” may continue to elude us as long as the old guard (Eye, Emigre, CA, How) still has the keys to the zeitgeist. The content hasn’t changed but the context is irrevocably different.

Rudy’s curated selections for this current issue of Emigre shows that he is sympathetic to the younger voice. Perhaps he always was? It remains to be seen what the paperback format will ultimately do to the Emigre. Already, the reduction of visuals has created a new VanderLans. In the Rant thread here, he offers this reflection:

“Someone mentioned that Rant was trying to hint at something that’s on the tip of our tongue, but we can’t quite articulate it. I can’t speak for the other writers, but to me it feels exactly like that.”

From that discussion also came the Tan Le paradox, “The clash of young vs old, craft vs computer, etc. pushed criticism to a level that has been unmatched since. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that design has become shit. Maybe design has become more uniformed, or mature, or more deep, or more shallow. My answer would be yes, yes, yes, and yes.”

And Finally, Armin from his essay, “Well, I beg to differ� and to agree.”

Both old and new seem to agree that the “problem” remains the greatest problem.

Part Two: Forum over Function

“People are buying into your dream…To create that world sucks the soul and personality out of a designer.” - Tom Ford, designer for Gucci and YSL

“What they are looking for is something familiar, perhaps a solution that has already worked for others in their particular field and was, rather likely, designed by one of (y)our competitors. Style follows profits. We need to remember that we are a service industry, we are here to serve our clients’ needs, not the canons of design criticism.” -Vit

Style follows profit? Though assertive, this accusation isn’t gospel. It’s cast in the same mode as form following function. However the vagaries in style and profit are not elements that are contingent on one another. Where form/function follows a diagrammatic of cause and effect, style/profit is a less pretty corollary.

Perhaps this is more easily illustrated in that profit in the abstract sense generally relies on style as a de facto element of its success. Conversely, Style exists independently of the market. You could pick a marketable style and still have something that is unprofitable.

As generally illustrated by the fashion industry, style precedes profit. This also holds up on the bedrock of normalcy in Hollywood in that it’s typically the stylistically unique projects in Hollywood that are the most profitable.

This issue greatly curbs on ideas of the �normal’ and mediocrity that we get to in the next section.

It should also be noted that in regards to the comments about design being a �service industry’ that there is a vast chasm between serving one’s client and servitude.

Part Three: A Life Worth Living

“Believe me, I have the utmost respect for Fella’s work and I don’t question his contributions to the field, but I fail to see how it affects mainstream culture. Mainstream culture is life. That’s all there is to it today, if it’s not showing on DirecTV nobody knows of its existence. How has this �formal’ experimentation affected culture? �My point is, one more time (and all together now,) experimentation is not being rewarded in today’s economy. I don’t see how a designer would choose “experimenting” over doing some nice corporate brochure that is bound to bring in business and pay the rent. I am not saying that the only reward one should expect is financial remuneration or Best of Shows, I just don’t see many reasons — challenging modernism is certainly not one of them — out there to take major risks. Sadly, today, might not be the best time for designers to be thinking about questioning the conventions of Graphic Design.” - Vit

FitzGerald’s point [Rant p.27] re the scrawl is a nod towards �genuine’ displays from designers like Chantry and Fella. It’s interesting that Vit would pick this segue in FitzGerald as it’s a minor point used to discredit the hand in Sagmeister.

The “hand” became an obvious counter-measure to the computer. Childish images cropped up in the mid 90s as the “hand” became a friendly signifier and then a movement: comprising everything from self-conscious drawings to the hobo/calligraphic fetish in typography.

“Mainstream culture is life?” I interpret this as Armin addressing the numbers that drive the decisions which are ready-made for us, and that fighting against that is less profitable. And in this form, again, an argument that style follows profit. Instead we get a sort of ‘blue sky’ confession that media is in control. Mainstream culture isn’t life — it’s an abstraction of life. A mediocre ideal. Life however tenuous, is individuated and assertive.

This particular section is the crux of the argument for Vit. The loggerhead between Vit’s amortization in a commodity driven avant-guard and VanderLans’ liberal Imperialism hangs on this issue of “experimenting”. Ultimately this is the basis for art vs. practice argument in the design community.

Curiously, Vit rounds up these thoughts with a somewhat morbid last question about conviction. In offering that now is not the best time to question the conventions of design I have to wonder then what is it that we do here? And if not now then when?

Part four: the Regulars

Vit goes on to bellwether for the fresh designers that are making a difference �voices of Today: Cahan and Associates, Aesthetic Apparatus, James Victore, Sagmeister. There seems to be a disconnect in the mention of Scher and Chantry as they represent the old guard: less contemporary, more iconic.

Quick on the heels of the Minneapolis send up (mitigated by the recent trip to TypeCon?) is generic support for a number of firms that are predominantly from New York. A heavy criticism of the Rant essay was the lack of specificity in the examples that the authors chose. It would have been nice to see support that included detailed analysis on any of the people or firms, for instance, say� Norman, and how they are approaching the problem of relevance in their new work.

Something that I now credit further in the rereading is the very good explication that FitzGerald performed on Mau in his �Quietude’ essay.

Part five: Stitching it all Together

“What, up and down carved like an apple tart?
Here’s snip and nip and cut and slish and slash,
Like to a censer in a barber’s shop.
Why, what’s a devil’s name, tailor, call’st thou this?”
- William Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew

Vit’s closing is elegant and sharp. Unspoken, is a soft lament towards the historical within the profession. And at the same time, making no excuses for not pushing forward.

“We are further from the days of Bass, Tibor and Rand and it’s a shame to see some of their iconic work bastardized with, as was stated in UPS’ rebranding media kit, greater visual impact but I don’t think that wallowing in the past is a smart activity. We need to look forward. Pointing out current flaws and trends in design may very well be part, and just the start, of a bigger process in getting back to stronger discourse. One where the flow of dialogue is two-sided and collaborative, creating paths for new ideas, processes and maybe a stronger understanding of where we stand as a profession and where it is we are headed. The mere act of indicating flaws and blemishes within the boundaries of Graphic Design should not be the only ammunition of choice among design critics — somebody must be willing to actually propose something� anything, at this point. �I guess I need to start with me.”

Once you’ve deforested design of its great practitioners, the fear is that you are left only the chaff of 3-d logos, horizon lines and swooshes. What sort of reminders do you then have of your cultural relevance, and what markers towards excellence? Where are the memorials? Such shallow epitaphs for Bass, Tibor, and Rand — now buried under the roughage of dancing, luminous candy and inexplicable upgrades.

On the other hand, what is sacred? If design is built upon the conceit of temporary shores (the market place) then it is not a testament to anything other than its use value. How can we address permanency as something other than kitsch?

Ironically, the ideas behind �loss’ and �quality’ that we here find ourselves addressing to a greater and greater degree are the essence of Rant to begin with. The apple doesn’t fall that far from the tree and Vit seeks the same words that we all seem to be searching for and not quite finding

“not my words” — Armin Vit

Quotes within are courtesy of Armin Vit’s article “Young Pups, Old Pops” published in Emigre 65: ‘If We’re Standing on the Shoulder’s of Giants �’. Some of the comments have been abbreviated.

This issue of Emigre can be purchased here: Emigre 65

Additional quotes are reproduced from Speak-Up’s Book Club critique of Rant.

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ARCHIVE ID 1621 FILED UNDER Critique
PUBLISHED ON Oct.07.2003 BY E. Tage Larsen
WITH COMMENTS
Comments
jesse’s comment is:

I can't believe I read the whole thing.

On Oct.07.2003 at 03:03 PM
Armin’s comment is:

Wow. Thanks Eric. For all of it.

First off I will not get in any sort of defensive position about this whole thing. It's not my style, so feel very free to tell me if I'm full of shit. This is the coolest thing, even cooler than getting published in Emigre... ha, maybe not.

I would also like to say that I wrote this a couple of weeks before we started our own discussion of Rant. I actually held back a lot of thoughts in that discussion so that I wouldn't repeat myself when this article came out. Rudy did not invite me to write it either. I asked him (more like begged) if he would let me write a response on Rant for publishing consideration. This was right after Rant came out, I read FitzGerald's (which was the first rant) and I was more than ready to put out my claws. Me being infuriated by Rant would be an understatement. The moment Rudy gave me th OK, I started writing, I didn't even know what to write — I knew I wanted to be honest — or how to write it. So I just let it be and this is what came out.

I would be lying if I didn't say that I was scared shitless of writing in Emigre and have people (like, ahem, Mr. Tage) say "who does this fucker think he is?" nonetheless I spoke my peace and now it's all there. For better or worse.

And it felt fucking amazing.

On Oct.07.2003 at 03:09 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

Eric. This is the web. We have short attention spans. ;o)

Phrases like "The loggerhead between Vit’s amortization in a commodity driven avant-guard" are totally lost on me. But maybe that's (well, most likely) just me.

I had to comment on *something*... ;o)

On Oct.07.2003 at 03:24 PM
eric’s comment is:

Darrel, i've been accused of being "florid" (read "excessive") before in my descriptive passages. sorry if it's thick at times.

On Oct.07.2003 at 03:33 PM
Armin’s comment is:

Now that I have a little more time:

When I first heard about this, my immediate thought was: “starfucker”.

Whew, well at least I got called starfucker early on in my career, I can now cross that off the list.

and points us towards some heroes that he thinks are heading in the right direction.

I would like to make a clarification here, the people I mention (KarlssonWilker, Open, 2 x 4, Werner, etc.) are not necessarily my heroes. This same issue came up too with Rudy when he first read it. I have my own set of heroes, which I have mentioned before. This list was meant to represent the people who are doing meaningful and/or eye-catching work right now. And I was scraping to get more. I think that was one of the reasons I started this discussion. To see if anybody else felt the slump.

Rudy’s curated selections for this current issue of Emigre shows that he is sympathetic to the younger voice. Perhaps he always was?

I obviously can't speak for Rudy, but one thing that has been missing all this time (hence my push to write the article) is more writing by young designers. I am sure that Rudy has nothing against younger people, it was just a matter of them (us) never writing shit. If Emigre 65 seems filled with more younger voices then Rant might have served its purpose in lighting a fire in our young asses.

Style follows profit? Though assertive, this accusation isn’t gospel.

I know it's not such an illuminating concept nor a flawless one. I think the way I was trying to bring it into the article was by saying that if a client (who is the one we are profiting from) wants to follow a certain look (style) and is willing to pay good money to do it designers will copy that style and milk it for all it's worth until there are no more profits to be made with that style — jumping on to the next client with money looking for a styling on their business. I'll stop, I'm confusing even myself. But there is something in there that I wanted to point out.

designers like Chantry and Fella. It’s interesting that Vit would pick this segue in FitzGerald as it’s a minor point used to discredit the hand in Sagmeister.

Well, I'm a huge admirer of Fella yet I'm always at odds to his relevance. That's why I wanted to mention him. Also, in regards to Sagmeister, I also stand up for him a bit. FitzGerald mentioned a picture of Sagmeister's testicle in the book WhereIsHere as a sign of his "shock over content" technique. I think I said something like "Sagmeister is more than naughty by nature (FitzGerald's words too) and the only one willing to put his balls out for lopping." Like I said, FitzGerald's article was the one that got me all rowdy and I thank him (thanks Kenneth) for that.

More responses later. This is fun!

On Oct.07.2003 at 07:10 PM
surts’s comment is:

I hate to admit this, but Armin's essay was the first that I read in No.65. I wasn't sure what to expect, would the online flow translate into print? In the end I was pleasantly surprised with his fluent writing, it read well. My only beef, (which is a general issue with most graphic design writing out there) is talk of the visual. People complain that there's nothing new, style this and style that... I think we're missing a huge point of design—the why. Is it too academic to question what is behind the design, the intentions and motives—maybe even a process? Not in the social context as much as what the designer brought to the table in terms of strategy, lateral thinking or business practices. It's fun to pick out the next trendy typeface, but it's a lot harder to figure out if the design succeeded on its raison d'etre.

I haven't completed No.65 yet, but what I have read is much easier to follow...

On Oct.07.2003 at 09:04 PM
darrel’s comment is:

What's with not being able to purchase Emigre at the newstand in Minneapolis/St. Paul? You'd think someone around here would carry the thing...

On Oct.07.2003 at 10:41 PM
eric’s comment is:

>I obviously can't speak for Rudy, but one thing that has been missing all this time (hence my push to write the article) is more writing by young designers. I am sure that Rudy has nothing against younger people, it was just a matter of them (us) never writing shit.

Emigre had dropped off my radar until the new format. Rant certainly seemed like a bunch of seasoned authors/designers looking back. However in 65, There was something ominous and awkward about some of the youngsters that were questioned about Helvetica.

>Well, I'm a huge admirer of Fella yet I'm always at odds to his relevance. That's why I wanted to mention him. Also, in regards to Sagmeister, I also stand up for him a bit. FitzGerald mentioned a picture of Sagmeister's testicle in the book WhereIsHere as a sign of his "shock over content" technique. I think I said something like "Sagmeister is more than naughty by nature (FitzGerald's words too) and the only one willing to put his balls out for lopping." Like I said, FitzGerald's article was the one that got me all rowdy and I thank him (thanks Kenneth) for that.

It’s now actually impossible for me to read FitzGerald’s article without the Rant discussion in my head. I went back and looked at the section that you referred to and it makes me less angry. Again, the Mau illustration was really well considered.

Re your Sagmeister crush. Why do you need to stand up for him? He’s successful and all about shock. I think the intent behind FG’s illustration was more that it was more honest to sit at home and contemplate how to do a Fella scrawl rather than trying to figure out how to get your junk on the photocopier. But maybe my aspirations are too high.

btw, am i the only person that's oversaturated with Ed Fella homages? I think it's very attractive work but it doesn't ask me to rethink anything.

�.

Re Michael Surtees comment: “My only beef, (which is a general issue with most graphic design writing out there) is talk of the visual. People complain that there's nothing new, style this and style that... I think we're missing a huge point of design—the why. Is it too academic to question what is behind the design, the intentions and motives—maybe even a process? Not in the social context as much as what the designer brought to the table in terms of strategy, lateral thinking or business practices.”

Michael� I guess I agree with you in sentiment. Only that the behind the scenes stuff is mostly unknowable to the audience and design is supposed to succeed in a subjective, face-value way: the visual. Talking about the subtext without actually having worked on the project is mostly conjecture.

On Oct.08.2003 at 07:15 AM
Kevin Lo’s comment is:

Just becaue we're standing on the shoulders of giants doesn't mean we can't spit on their heads.

On Oct.08.2003 at 11:28 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> Re your Sagmeister crush. Why do you need to stand up for him?

I don't need to. I wanted to. And it was in the spirit of Emigre's article wars. We'll see what happens in Emigre 66. And also, this crush thing is getting out of hand. I don't like him (or his work) that much.

> However in 65, There was something ominous and awkward about some of the youngsters that were questioned about Helvetica.

I thought that was actually one of the funniest features of the issue. From Segura's one syllable responses to Johnstone's (DiK) complete dissasociation from Helvetica's meaning. I think it was a great set-up by Rudy.

> In the end I was pleasantly surprised with his fluent writing, it read well.

Thanks Michael.

> I think we're missing a huge point of design—the why. Is it too academic to question what is behind the design, the intentions and motives—maybe even a process?

I hear ya, believe me, if I really knew the why of design (like, really really know it) I would be the first one on line to write about it. It's such a tough subject. Just look at all our big-picture discussions, they are all over the place. It's hard.

On Oct.08.2003 at 11:43 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> Just becaue we're standing on the shoulders of giants doesn't mean we can't spit on their heads.

NICE!

On Oct.08.2003 at 11:44 AM
Armin’s comment is:

“Mainstream culture is life?” Instead we get a sort of 'blue sky' confession that media is in control. Mainstream culture isn’t life — it’s an abstraction of life. A mediocre ideal. Life however tenuous, is individuated and assertive.

This is especially true in America, I knew people here based a lot of their life over what happens on TV and pop culture, but I was surprised as to the extent in which TV (which is the main icon of mainstream culture) affects people's everyday lives. For good and bad. This is just a generalization and by no means do I think of it as the ultimate truth, but that's what I see as an outsider. Also, I would be lying if I didn't confess that it also affects me. For good and bad.

In offering that now is not the best time to question the conventions of design I have to wonder then what is it that we do here? And if not now then when?

You are right, now (which is actually whenever) is as good a time as any to experiment. Which leads to the whole fucking debate on what is experimenting. And I'm not going to get into it right now. But I still stand by my point, right now is not a good time to experiment. At least not with client's projects. There is too much fragility involved to be messing with somebody else's business to satisfy the design critics who want to crack open the next big thing.

�voices of Today:..There seems to be a disconnect in the mention of Scher and Chantry as they represent the old guard: less contemporary, more iconic.

It wasn't my intention to mention contemporary designers only. Plus Chantry did not get a good grade. And Scher is back.

Quick on the heels of the Minneapolis send up (mitigated by the recent trip to TypeCon?) is generic support for a number of firms that are predominantly from New York.

The article was written pre-TypeCon. The Minneapolis syndrome has always baffled me. It's just impressive how predominant the style is all over the city.

New York... no comment. Like you have said yourself Eric, New York just 'is."

for instance, say� Norman, and how they are approaching the problem of relevance in their new work.

Well, I can defintely speak for us, not for the rest of the firms. At norman we don't have any sort of change the world of design policy or anything. This goes on in a more personal level. I do it for me, never ever for anybody else. Everything I do, I always question it and I usually don't like the answers I give myself. Like I said in the article, I'm very proud of my work and the way I approach design but, just like Rant, there is something missing... and I have it at the tip of my tongue (in this case the mouse) but I just can't reach it. I'm missing that little extra something and probably I will never know what that is. I just have to keep looking. And trying. And failing. And putting it out there for trashing. Or awarding. I guess if I found it I would probably milk it to death, get bored, and lose my desire for design. I'd rather keep questioning myself constantly and always on the look for whatever that is.

On Oct.08.2003 at 05:20 PM
corey’s comment is:

At norman we don't have any sort of change the world of design policy or anything.

I have always wondered about the role of a commercial artist in changing the world and why one feels that it is the designer's responsibility. It has always seemed a bit ridiculous to me. I wonder if it's because the designer feels guilty about being a set of hired hands (for the majority of designers, that is), and somehow want to clear their conscience of this. I can't tell you how many times I've heard designers break into near tears describing design as art. Why is it that design is not enough? Why make it art, why the need to alter the course of history through your in-store promotional item?

I think Peter Saville put it best when he related this anecdote -

The designer Michael Peters, who led the way in consumer packaging design in this country, once asked me what my goals were as a designer. I said something ambitious such as, “I’d like to make the UK look much better.” He said, “My ambition is to make fish finger packaging just ten per cent better in your lifetime, then that’s really about as much as you can hope to do.

On Oct.08.2003 at 07:23 PM
Kenneth FitzGerald’s comment is:

I'm glad to see a discussion of Armin's Emigre essay here so I can publicly say it was the first thing I read when the issue arrived and I enjoyed it very much. (I know my praise will hurt Armin's stature more than anything negative I could write. Shows you how evil I can really be.) The article was thoughful, opinionated, and fun to read--all big virtues in my book. The absence of such writing was what my Rant lamented, not the passing of some problematic graphics.

And Eric's comments on the article are also great--I look forward to some published writing by him (dare, dare). First and most, I'm a reader/producer who wants his ideas challenged--how else can I learn?

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to clarify a couple things that've been written, in a spirit to move the conversation upward. I swear it's not to show people up, really!

My comment about Sagmeister's handwriting was a critique of Peter Hall's claim for its significance. As mark-making, I like Stefan's writing; it's as legitimate as any other you might choose. But asserting that it's some watershed paradigm (oops, sorry, damn, big buzz word) shifting thing is flat wrong--for the reasons I stated. And, just to grab just one example from the music design biz, what about all the nice sleeves Michael Ross did (does?) at A&M Records--and often feature his handwriting? Shouldn't he get some credit? The handwriting thing is just another aspect of wildly overinflating the significance of Stefan's work.

And I still think Ed Fella's letterforming has more significance, though it's subtler. First, Ed's far more involved in his forms. And they've inspired in less obvious ways: such as in typeface designs by other people (from some statements I've read). They also created a climate which allowed other work to be appreciated. (I was having a discussion the other day along these lines with Elliott Earls about his work.)

I'd also reassert that Sagmeister's work is nowhere as daring as claimed. And I'd use Armin's critical method from his article to back it up. That AIGA Detroit poster was for an insular design crowd and the testicle shot was for Whereishere--one of those artsy designer vanity books. If you're going to question the import of the Emigre/Cranbrook/CalArts crowd work because it only circulates in those channels, you've gotta go across the board.

By the way, as Armin was accused of loving Stefan, let me say I don't hate him. He's a talented and sincere guy who wrote me a thoughtful email in response to my Rant. My problem isn't so much with his work but the hyperactive adoration it receives. When Stefan produces something like Mapplethorpe's X Portfolio, then we can talk putting balls on the line.

That's far more than enough from me. Keep up the good work! And see you all in Emigre 66 with another infuriating essay...which I've yet to write...

On Oct.09.2003 at 12:13 AM
Kenneth FitzGerald’s comment is:

Damn, there was one other thing, sorry. And that's to second Armin's comment that the absence of "younger voices" in Emigre is due to them not sounding out. I won't presume to speak for Rudy either, but from my observation, he wants passionate, engaged discussion, regardless of opinion (in other words, he'd be as open to me writing something in praise of Robin Kinross' Unjustified Texts [an excellent collection by the way, I'd love to see a Book Club discussion of it!] as Elliott Earls' Catfish) or age. In a broad sense, you can lump Emigre in with How, Print, CA, etc. but if you want to parade your ideas in front of the sharpest design crowd, there's nowhere else to be. Armin deserves even his self-generated props for jumping in. (Me, I just give myself credit for being pretty good with making Rudy's deadlines.)

On Oct.09.2003 at 12:38 AM
eric’s comment is:

Lots to respond to but first I want to thank Armin for taking the criticism so gracefully. Secondly, I want to point out how wonderful it is that Kenneth FitzGerald is also open-minded enough to still support these discussions and us considering our history with the Rant essay.

“Damn, there was one other thing, sorry. And that's to second Armin's comment that the absence of "younger voices" in Emigre is due to them not sounding out.” - KFG

Regarding “youth”. I agree with the above statement and also when Armin echoed it earlier. But it is in opposition to many of the people that show up here. And a lot of evidence that people in their 20s and 30s are concerned about the nuances of their environment and profession.

So why isn’t that voice heard more frequently in publishing? Is it editorial cronyism or chalked up to desire?

Armin, I’d be curious to hear more about your opinion of the Helvetica setup. I was more disturbed by the answers than thinking them funny. In the case of the young web designers many if not all of the answers were stiffer than theoretical physics.

More later.

On Oct.09.2003 at 07:35 AM
Armin’s comment is:

Armin, I’d be curious to hear more about your opinion of the Helvetica setup. I was more disturbed by the answers than thinking them funny.

I agree with you, they were disturbing. But I found them disturbingly funny.

The people Rudy picked was a great start. Andrew Johnstone (of DiK) and Michael Cina would never be mentioned in the same breadth as Michael Bierut. I don't need to go into details, we can all tell they are worlds apart — in technique, approach, objectives, etc. Helvetica is obviously and undeniably a trendy typeface, it's part of the undesigned style that is so popular and so easy to imitate by anyone with a computer.

I hate to keep bringing Michael B into this and pitting him against the eye-candy folk, but it's a perfect example of the opposite uses of Helvetica: classy vs. trendy. And, believe me, when you see each of these designers use it you can tell the difference from miles away.

I think the use of Helvetica nowadays is in fact an easy way out for people who have no real sense of typography (this is not the case with Cina who, as much as I knock on, has a tremendous sense of typography) and it provides instant street cred to pose as a cool, hip designer. Pathetic.

Did anybody read Experimental Jetset's �berexplanation? What a load of bullshit. Again, pathetic. They were trying to give too much meaning to something that wasn't even there.

On Oct.09.2003 at 09:04 AM
eric’s comment is:

“The article was written pre-TypeCon. The Minneapolis syndrome has always baffled me. It's just impressive how predominant the style is all over the city. “

Armin, re the Minneapolis syndrome. My bad for thinking that you’d written this after Typecon. I haven’t noticed or felt the effect of the “Minneapolis syndrome”. In an earlier version of my response to your essay I actually went further off on this.

I saw the rise in decorative flourishes in design as more of a trend coming from the Northern European countries and the desire for handmade items. Belgian fashion was all the rage and everybody wanted to do needlepoint. That Minneapolis is still largely dominated by Germanic/Scandinavian history might point to why that trend shows so heavily there.

So, if Minneapolis be a style... then bring it on.

“At norman we don't have any sort of change the world of design policy or anything. This goes on in a more personal level. I do it for me, never ever for anybody else. Everything I do, I always question it and I usually don't like the answers I give myself.”

Ok, so maybe it isn’t posted on the door or anything but I find it hard to believe that you are only a rabble rouser online. How can you want to kick the world in the junk and not have that affect your 9-5. Particularly in light of your harsh self-criticism of some of the dot.com era work you produced.

I’m not saying that you want to storm the castle but maybe there’s a more mature answer to moving your clients forward and making work better.

Which brings me to Corey’s comments�

“I have always wondered about the role of a commercial artist in changing the world and why one feels that it is the designer's responsibility. “

“I can't tell you how many times I've heard designers break into near tears describing design as art. Why is it that design is not enough?”

in response to the designer’s conscience I guess I’ll open it up to others to chime in why they feel personally responsible for what they’re working on, but for my part I can offer that so much of design is arbitrary. You might have direction from the client but you the designer have a ton of control at the start of the project to steer things.

The Design v. Art thing is a huge question. Part of the problem is that as a craft, and a recently lucrative craft, the attention and nearness of Design to Fine Art caused a lot of cross-culture interaction. If something is pretty, flat and made of paint, then why isn’t it a painting?

I guess I don’t want to throw myself on this grenade yet this morning, only I’ll offer that Designers offer a very public aesthetic that is in our present culture frequently as important (if not more) than Art.

On Oct.09.2003 at 10:24 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> The handwriting thing is just another aspect of wildly overinflating the significance of Stefan's work.

I wonder why Sagmeister's significance is so overinflated? To me it's just the bad boy effect, where the badness is kind of subjective, of course, and can be interpreted by people in different levels. I think the need to have somebody to make design look like a daring and slightly devilish profession is one of the reasons. And other than James Victore and Stefan, nobody's doing it on such a public level — and yes, that "public" level doesn't go deeper or farther than graphic designers.

> I can publicly say it was the first thing I read when the issue arrived and I enjoyed it very much.

*blush*

> I know my praise will hurt Armin's stature more than anything negative I could write. Shows you how evil I can really be.

Ha, true. Pure evil.

On Oct.09.2003 at 10:25 AM
Armin’s comment is:

I find it hard to believe that you are only a rabble rouser online. How can you want to kick the world in the junk and not have that affect your 9-5.

It's different but I see your point. I have another set of responsibilities here and a different crowd. If you see my work it probably doesn't reflect the way I am and act on Speak Up — it can't be. I should probably be designing Sagmeister-style and stirring shit up. I guess it's hard to explain. I am a rabble rouser at work in a different way, and again, on a more personal level.

I’m not saying that you want to storm the castle but maybe there’s a more mature answer to moving your clients forward and making work better.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by mature. I try to move my clients forward by doing the best work that I can under each project's circumstances (type of client, budget, target audience), I don't (and can't) do it by being rowdy like I am here. I'm not sure what my point is or if this just puts me in a deeper hole. But here is where the problem is, why the hell are we doing what we are doing? And why are we doing it a certain way?

I don't know.

On Oct.09.2003 at 10:39 AM
graham’s comment is:

helvetica is 'street-cred'? where?

"And other than James Victore and Stefan, nobody's doing it on such a public level — and yes, that "public" level doesn't go deeper or farther than graphic designers."

fuel

kim hiorthoy

peter saville

rebecca and mike

shinro ohtake

paul elliman

jonathon barnbrook

stanley donwood

only scratches the surface

On Oct.09.2003 at 03:47 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

>So why isn’t that voice heard more frequently in publishing? Is it editorial cronyism or chalked up to desire?

Sad to say, but I do think it is editorial cronyism. I have (unfortunately) found there to be quite a lot of cronyism littered all through our little design community, whether it be the AIGA, DMI, ADC, or among the many design publications. Like seems to seek like. Other than Speak Up (which has also been accused of cliquishness) I have found that most design organizations have a very tight center and allow for little significant "infiltration." I have not discovered many welcome mats out there--at least for "my type." Which doesn't mean I have stopped trying to contribute. I have found, however, that if someone has a differing or challenging point of view, or (gasp, horror) a different design aesthetic (read: brand design) that it has been tough to a) get any respect and b) get people to listen.

But I understand why. To answer your question, Eric, I do find that there is enormous editorial cronyism. But I am determined to keep trying to sneak in there--not for the sake of sneaking in, but to potentially add to the debate, continue to challenge my own ideas and ideals, and to learn.

On a separate note: (and I am sure this will smack of my own cronyism, but I believe it is warranted)--I loved Armin's article and I loved Eric's review. Necessary.

"If not us, then who?"

On Oct.10.2003 at 08:34 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> helvetica is 'street-cred'? where?

Here.

On Oct.10.2003 at 09:51 AM
graham’s comment is:

>> helvetica is 'street-cred'? where?

>Here.

i'd be interested to know what work you mean because i didn't twig to much of a muller-brockmann/weingart influence the last time i was 'there' (if you mean the u.s. generally-if you mean chicago specifically then i'll have to believe you). i also wonder where mcginness/mcfetridge/barnstormers/staple etc.-which is actually among the only stuff of worldwide interest in u.s. design at the mo-come into this all.

On Oct.10.2003 at 11:22 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> if you mean the u.s. generally

Yes, that's what I meant, the US in general. The fever has passed a little bit. It was more apparent 2 years ago, maybe even three. When the Designer's Republic, Buro Destruct and Attik became the trend.

But I think I may be missing to answer you Graham, as it all started with my "street-cred" comment. I have noticed many designers who have very little sense of what design actually is or means using Helvetica because it is the "cool" typeface to use. By using it, these people can claim to be designers and appear like they know what they are talking about, when they couldn't kern a To to save their lives.

> i also wonder where mcginness/mcfetridge/barnstormers/staple etc.-which is actually among the only stuff of worldwide interest in u.s. design

That's interesting that you mention those people. Because they get very little publicity and exposure here in the US. It's funny that they are the ones catching the eye of people in the rest of the world.

On Oct.10.2003 at 11:42 AM
graham’s comment is:

armin-i'm just picking up on the helvetica thing and trying to figure out what that means to you/other people over there, to get an idea of how our design shorthand dovetails/differs-e.g. the people you mention as examples i'd sort of describe more as textured/layered techno(-the helvetica thing is more of a purist swiss thing, and i thought you were implying that was all the rage at the moment, but not in a good way). anyway . . . but

the thing is that if one is any kind of designer one works internationally. it is unavoidable. if you have your own site or have designed anything that is on the internet then your work can be seen by everyone online in every country. then books, magazines, television, any and all media, worldwide. design in any form does not benefit from parochialism or nationalism because it is to do with communication in direct yet subtle ways. this communication tends towards something that could almost be described as mind-to-mind, and as such becomes international in the same way that music is an international language-and the work that speaks internationally is (especially in these days) the most powerful and important. it is incumbent on us as designers absolutely to be aware of what that work is and to have an interest in why that work speaks in the way it does-actually, not incumbent, but more instinctive, or even reflexive, as simple and important as breathing. especially if we are going to be making broad statements about the state of the game in october 2003.

On Oct.10.2003 at 12:09 PM
Joe Pemberton’s comment is:

I haven't read Emigre 65 (they quit sending me free issues). Nor could I digest all of Eric's article about two other articles. (I probably need to read the articles he's referring to...)

But, regarding Helvetica. The only people still using Helvetica as 'street-cred' are designing for designers. They're not designing for clients... And besides, they've since moved from Helvetica to Din and Cooper Black. (The irony here is that in 1999 almost an entire issue of Emigre was set in Cooper Black to ewws and icks from its readership.)

The rest of the people using Helvetica are using it because they have no imagination.

(Don't get me wrong, I regard Helvetica as an uber classic, along with Vignelli's three other favorite faces. Cooper Black is an ugly sucker with tons of charm. And Din? Din rocks but is just suffering from overuse.)

On Oct.10.2003 at 07:26 PM
Joe Pemberton’s comment is:

Re: spitting on the heads of the giants on whom we stand.

This attitude makes me sick. Where's the gratitude? Or even the acknowledgement? You don't have to like what the dead guys gave us, but not studying it and not appreciating it for what it is (its greatness in its own time or context), is ignorance in its most pollished, spoiled and self-entitled state.

No wonder the old guard won't publish us. (Except for Armin I guess. Props for that.)

On Oct.10.2003 at 08:04 PM
Kenneth FitzGerald’s comment is:

I do find that there is enormous editorial cronyism. But I am determined to keep trying to sneak in there--not for the sake of sneaking in, but to potentially add to the debate, continue to challenge my own ideas and ideals, and to learn.

No wonder the old guard won't publish us. (Except for Armin I guess. Props for that.)

Then publish yourselves. Of all the people in this world, designers have the least excuse (probably none) for not taking matters into their own hands and making their own forums (like Emigre, like Speak Up).

If you believe you're representative of a significant group of people who aren't being heard—there's your audience. Sure, you can argue that the establishment outlets should publish you but that's a holding pattern. Is it easy? No. But so what?

On Oct.10.2003 at 10:50 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

>Then publish yourselves. Of all the people in this world, designers have the least excuse (probably none) for not taking matters into their own hands and making their own forums (like Emigre, like Speak Up).

Kenneth: you are right. I ask you to wait (just a little bit) and watch...

On Oct.11.2003 at 08:13 AM
eric’s comment is:

Millie:

Thanks for the props. I can’t help but wonder if as in the recent Emigre, Rudy won’t continue to open the door to greater caprices, like the Helvetica discussion. The pulp edition seems to be a cheaper arena to experiment with voices — and maybe not so locked into format.

Along the lines of what I want to read and who I write for, I’m going to take a bit of a side step and voice that I’m a bit surprised by the seemingly private or lackluster interest in some of the more big picture threads here recently. In particular, the deconstruction of Screen, by Kiran, and recently the wonderful rant by Graham.

Maybe it’s an entirely personal thing, but I’m a bit appalled that some of the people that talk such trash in the popcorn threads won’t put any time or conviction to something outside of a soundbite.

I’m probably preaching to the converted here -- as this thread has already been wordy enough to be exclusionary.

Joe Pemberton: “This attitude makes me sick. Where's the gratitude”

Well, I guess I agree with both sentiments.

I don’t mind the kicking the tires syndrome. But at some point in time if all you’re doing is debasing people then you have to wonder what’s the use. I don’t know that in this particular instance it was meant as anything other than brewing a little rivalry between Emigre and the malcontents herein.

Kenneth: “Then publish yourselves”

Is this more of your �evil’, reverse psychology? (dare, dare) ; )

On Oct.11.2003 at 10:28 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> armin-i'm just picking up on the helvetica thing and trying to figure out what that means to you/other people over there,

Graham, sorry for the late response. I obviously can't speak for a whole nation. To me Helvetica means nothing, it is just another typeface that I can use to get my idea accross. I never use it to convey any sense of anything: whether it's swiss modernist or techno. I actually rarely use Helvetica, when I do it's usually the bolder versions, maybe medium, the rest of the wieghts are mostly crappy.

I also think, and this ties in with another essay in Emigre "Default Systems" by Rob Giampietro and Joe Pemberton's comment, that Helvetica doesn't require a lot of thought. It's there by default in every Mac. It looks good in print, web, signage and packaging no matter how much type knowledge you have. Or you lack.

So, in conclusion I may not be the best person to get into this discussion with; I have no strong feelings for Helvetica (graphically, politically or historically) and I believe that it used by many designers because of its trendiness, not because of its merits as a typeface for communication.

On Oct.11.2003 at 04:12 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> Maybe it’s an entirely personal thing, but I’m a bit appalled that some of the people that talk such trash in the popcorn threads won’t put any time or conviction to something outside of a soundbite.

Also, not leave Eric dangling alone, I support his comments.

On Oct.11.2003 at 04:16 PM
Lorraine Wild’s comment is:

Just a short comment on the issue of publishing, and (I guess) a defense of Emigre: Rudy has always published anyone who cares to write a letter, flattering or critical, no matter how long; and in fact, the "letters to the editor" section of Emigre has always been the source of provocative comment from all over the place, without obvious connection to specific schools or offices. (If you go way back, you can see that Vanderlans has actually drawn pieces out of writers who initially responded through the letter section). So to talk about Emigre as if it is some sort of closed shop is to ignore one of its most interesting features! And really, if you get close to any sort of publishing, what you realize is that most of the design journals and the magazines are actually wide open to writers - they simply don't have enough of them. (Reproduction of work is a more complicated issue, but the complaints here seem mostly to be about access to the expression of critical opinion). And Mr. Fitzgerald is right, the last people who should be complaining about the lack of publishing opportunities are graphic designers. And though Speak Up is obviously an significant platform right now, the historian part of me is sad that it exists in the technologically-wobbly format of the blog. I guess we have yet to see how much of a voice can be sustained when the medium is impermanent. And I'm sure someone out there is saying "So what," but the culture of design is built on its already very patchy and incomplete records...

On Oct.13.2003 at 12:12 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> And though Speak Up is obviously an significant platform right now, the historian part of me is sad that it exists in the technologically-wobbly format of the blog.

We are working on it. On the wobblyness and on bringing it to the (wobbly-as-well) non-digital, real world.

Baby steps.

On Oct.13.2003 at 10:26 AM
Andrew Shurtz’s comment is:

To me Helvetica means nothing, it is just another typeface that I can use to get my idea accross. I never use it to convey any sense of anything: whether it's swiss modernist or techno.

I also think, and this ties in with another essay in Emigre "Default Systems" by Rob Giampietro and Joe Pemberton's comment, that Helvetica doesn't require a lot of thought. It's there by default in every Mac. It looks good in print, web, signage and packaging no matter how much type knowledge you have. Or you lack.

How can you say that a typeface means nothing? Doesn't the fact that it seems 'meaningless' imply a meaning in itself? And isn't there always a current stylish typeface that seems to be anything and everything? I think the really interesing thing about Rudy's Helvetica article in the new Emigre is how it digs into what's underneath the whole trend — it's really easy to look at a style like it and want to dismiss it immediately ('instant designers', 'easy way out', etc.), and I think that's only normal, but there's more to a (major?) trend like that than just people trying to look cool. (Of course there are lots of people just aping the trend, but you have to look at the bigger picture.) Design is all about choices, right? It seems like Helvitica is a sort of symbol for a kind of modernist nostalgia that's running through design right now, a kind of yearning for the universal that many people felt was ignored in the early 90's/experimental days. (F'rinstance, look at Geoff Mcfetridge's CalArts work and the stuff he's doing now.)

I guess I'm not really trying to say that the Helvetica Phenomenon is good or bad, just that the pendulum is swinging, and it's currently at it's furthest point (I think) from the 'Experimental'. (that's the best label I can think of right now.)

About Emigre in general, some of you may knock it, but it's really the only domestic magazine doing any kind of probing/experimentation on any large scale. Just compare the Helvetica article with the fabulously lame 'What's your least favorite font' article in the new print — other magazines only really scratch the surface writing wise, and the features on designers aren't usually anything more than show and tell. When I entered school, all the writings I encountered initially about design were really two dimensional — There were "Right" and "Wrong" ways to design, "Design is this" and "Design is that", but when I got my first issue (and free, no less!) I really felt for the first time this huge, unexplainable, ineffable, possibility.

On Oct.13.2003 at 11:20 AM
Armin’s comment is:

> How can you say that a typeface means nothing?

To me. Helvetica means a lot ot things of course. I choose to ignore what it means and use it based on whether or not is right for the project.

On Oct.13.2003 at 11:29 AM
Armin’s comment is:

I never finished answering the whole thing.

Vit’s closing is elegant and sharp. Unspoken, is a soft lament towards the historical within the profession. And at the same time, making no excuses for not pushing forward.

This is weird for me now. On one end I would love to see us move forward and leave a lot of the preconceptions we (I'm as guilty of this as anybody else) have about design behind. On the other end, we all saw how pissed I (we) got at UPS's rebranding, not so much because it was ridding us of Rand's work, but because it was ridding us of some of design's principles (a black and white logo, to name just one). It's hard to let go and ignore years and years of proven graphic design. It's even harder to see it stepped on.

Emigre's new issue sums it up perfectly with their title If We're Standing on the Shoulders of Giants..., and Kevin's spitting comment ties it all together. This duality of sentiments is, to put it coloquially, a bitch. So my own sentiments are equally split, I probably long for new paths without the loss of tradition, it is possible?

Anyway, I think that's all I have and all I can muster. Thanks again Eric, this was fun.

On Oct.15.2003 at 12:52 PM
eric’s comment is:

you're quite welcome.

regarding my epilogue. thank you for responding. i wish that there had been greater interest, as that problem of permanency, substance and history seems to be an area of concern that we share with the Emigre authors.

To the matter of the UPS logo, I agree that the new �format’ is a bitter pill, but I think the thing that upsets me the most is the loss of the iconic Rand form. I have the same feeling about AT&T logo and wish I could point to a discussion that you and Millie had about swapping out the telco type against the �ball’.

I like to think that it’s more than sentimentality — and that it belongs more to a disdain I have that so much of the new is merely new, not better.

On Oct.15.2003 at 01:29 PM
debbie millman’s comment is:

Eric: I think what you are looking for is this.

On Oct.15.2003 at 03:23 PM
eric’s comment is:

Thanks Deb, i'm sorry to see that Armin's counterpoint is no longer available.

On Oct.15.2003 at 03:43 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> i'm sorry to see that Armin's counterpoint is no longer available.

Yeah, it got lost somewhere, and I haven't gotten around to recreate it.

On Oct.15.2003 at 03:55 PM
nancy mazzei’s comment is:

I think Graham and definitely Lorraine have great points, I hate when people make sweeping statements. Who gets to say most designers use this or that font for whatever reasons? WHO? It’s idiotic and to be honest foolish, show me the work point it out have the author stand up for it and if you cant do that then don’t mention it.

and then this:

So, in conclusion I may not be the best person to get into this discussion with; I have no strong feelings for Helvetica (graphically, politically or historically)

Then Don’t! Why would someone comment on something they don’t have strong feelings about?

I believe that it used by many designers because of its trendiness, not because of its merits as a typeface for communication.

really? I don’t. I think most designers give a shit about their work,fonts and craft, look at how many post on this site everyday. When you make sweeping statements your talking about everyone, us, them, whoever...and you don’t know me or my work well enough to do that. This goes beyond "helevtica"

Armin? your killing me. and I’m really trying.

On Dec.05.2003 at 05:41 PM
Armin’s comment is:

> Then Don’t! Why would someone comment on something they don’t have strong feelings about?

Nancy, that is a silly comment, just because I am not die-hard passionate about Helvetica it doesn't give me the right to express my opinion? Silly.

> really? I don’t. I think most designers give a shit about their work,fonts and craft, look at how many post on this site everyday. When you make sweeping statements your talking about everyone, us, them, whoever...and you don’t know me or my work well enough to do that. This goes beyond "helevtica"

By your reaction I take it you are a fan of Helvetica. That's cool. My statement was not generalized, I said many not all. And I stand by my statement whether I know the people or not.

> Armin? your killing me. and I’m really trying.

Then I have done my job well.

On Dec.05.2003 at 09:14 PM
nancy mazzei’s comment is:

not buying.

On Dec.08.2003 at 11:28 AM
Armin’s comment is:

Not selling

On Dec.08.2003 at 11:38 AM