I'm happy that I've got another couple things to read and think about during the day. The only thing I would add is a running counter of comments like su has so I can see if anyone has added anything. Sure I can scroll down, but its harder for me to keep track if anything new is said.

A similar site with essays, interviews and reviews is typotheque

> i've never seen mainstream design journalists take to a new media quite so readily or fluently.

If I may flatter ourselves, I think it was easier for them to take to the new media after we broke ground, as they say.

> i was getting a little weary of seeing only newstoday, designiskinky, and kaliber 10000 at the newsstand with anything remotely interesting to say.

Um, patric, those are not good design reading places. Unless looking for cool eye-candied links.

I would like to go on record that I was very wary of the Design Observer when I first heard of it. Nobody likes competition after all, right? Plus competition with Rick Poynor attached to it is kind of a scary thought. I think I'm past it now, most of it was shock I guess. I'm not sure what my point is, anyway, like you said patric, it's nice to see the new kids in the neighborhood. We'll see what happens.

Nobody likes competition after all, right?

You can look at this way: there's no replacing the NYTimes or the Washington Post. They are unique on their own. But, taken together, we get a richer view of news and events from around the world. So, in concert, Speak Up and Design Observer will only help broaden design commentary and bring it to an increasingly accessible level,

And a little competition never hurt anyone.

DesignObserver, like eyemagazine.com, is a welcome place to find pieces of substance about design. If the word 'substance' bothers you, substitute 'length' though it's not quite what I meant. Maybe it's where Speak Up was in the beginning in which case the low comment count is hardly occasion for criticism. Maybe it's not built to be as discussion-heavy as Speak Up, which is fine too. Speak Up, imho, lacks a lot in the way of substance and developed thinking (usually the price paid for spontaneity and excitement-of-the-moment). So there's a role it plays in the larger realm of design dialogue.

It's an interesting combination of people--Beirut and Poynor write much more in the plain style after E.B. White or someone of that sort, whereas Drenttel and Helfand write with a far more theory-informed viewpoint and wordset (made that one up).

The site, I'd add, has some major kinks to work out. Like, if the decide to switch to a monthly front-page format.

Oh, and I'd like to add--"designobserver" is an unfortunate choice of name. My college newspaper was The Spectator and I had a friend who always made fun of it and said his paper was The Participant (college humor, I know). Design Observer sounds more passive than it's meant, perhaps, but since there are 3 practicing designers on the masthead...but oh well, too late. At least the URL is easy to explain to people (ahem).

Design Observer....

Design Spectacle...

Design Shrine,

Orator Recepticle...

Hey, at least it doesnt have the B word attached.

Um, patric, those are not good design reading places. Unless looking for cool eye-candied links.

And by eye-candy you mean links to design firms, art museums, online projects, fashion labels, book publishers, design events/conferences, design related news, record labels, magazines, Type foundries, portfolios... and "Speak Up"?

But, you're right, there isn't much talk about the new Hershey bar at any of these portals.

OOF, right in the solar plexus!

Wow, I just misspelled my own name.

Yes Petter, those types of links. The problem (it's not exactly a problem per se) I have with most Newstoday's links is that they point to something that looks cool for cool's sake regardless of the content. I can say that I have enjoyed the links you have put up, including the mention of our little party in Vancouver (thanks!) but I do have to ask, how come we didn't meet? Or did we? Was I that drunk?

and "Speak Up"?

Hey, I can't help it if we are good looking ; )

Has anyone checked if allthingstoallpeople.com is taken? How can any one site be the design discussion site? It would be futile to try, I'd think. But Jon brings up the point about competition, and I think this is a sensitive point the more ego gets involved. There was a lot of ego being thrown around when DesignObserver was first discussed and it was embarrassing. DO, like k10k and SpeakUp, fill a niche. Viewing it as a competition, as we've seen, makes it turn ugly and it would be good to keep that out of it. Is that bad? Maybe I'm just less fucking confrontational than some of you other motherfuckers. Hee hee.

And how long before there's a blog by women designers, for women designers, and about women designers? Might serve a need...

Point taken. And I agree. But a dismissing generalization is just that.

Newstoday, should be about design related "news". The little discussion forum we have... well I wont say anything about it, I gotta be sheep about that one.

I tagged along to the party with Stowell. I was too busy drinking Canadian beer too socialize. Thank you very much. Next time...

> But a dismissing generalization is just that.

True. So, I agree too.

Armin, I'm not even sure I see Design Observer as competition for Speak Up. Speak Up seems to me to be more geared toward community discussion and collaboration, whereas Design Observer seems more focused on longer-form individual observations, with room for commentary. Even if the two publications are competitive, what's wrong with that? Bottom line: no need to be defensive -- Speak Up is a great community. Enjoy what you've created, and don't worry too much about your competition, real or imagined. Though if that gives you the juice to keep making Speak Up fresh, that's fine, too.

(Side note to PK: if you want to make sure the competition stays friendly, make sure their names are spelled correctly...)

I have to say about DO, what I find frustrating is the lack of actual conversation there. That would be the main difference between it and Speak Up. On DO they post their albeit intersting posts, and then people "comment" on them. And that's it. No interaction whatsoever. As someone recently pointed out in the Sheepy thread, here, you can ask the author what they meant by that, and they'll respond. There's dialogue! There's name-calling! There are apologies, retractions and maudlin professions of love and respect!

So DO and SU are really very aptly named.

As for "competition," well, yeah, we only really have so much time (and here it is nearly noon again and I haven't had breakfast or done a stitch of work), so most people will make a choice. Myself, I'm sticking where the conversation is, and the community. (I love ya all ... so much! waaahhhh...)

And how long before there's a blog by women designers, for women designers, and about women designers?

Please god, no.

BTW, speaking of links to intersting things design related, I'm surprised no-one mentioned Coudal.

Dammmit! Cheshire types faster'n'me.

We didn't do it, whatever it was.

Um, patric, those are not good design reading places.

i know. i was being nice. really nice.

Side note to PK: if you want to make sure the competition stays friendly, make sure their names are spelled correctly..

yeah, i guess so. but 1) i never remember names to begin with, so that i pulled his out is a small miracle and 2) everyone misspells my name all the time...so mangled nomenclature just rolls off my back. i'm fairly sure i misspell michael's name every time i type it, but everyone still seems to get it. i'm not worried. he's probably used to it as well.

i'm a little bothered that some prefer to see design observer as competition (particularly you, armin)—the attitude is completely different from speak up. i'm happy to find any online destination with excellent design writing.

> i'm a little bothered that some prefer to see design observer as competition (particularly you, armin)

Like I said, that was my initial reaction and I blame it on human nature — thanks to this thread I'm finally getting over it though.

Yeah, that discussion for "The Power of Design Part II" was ugly! Like designer gangs talking trash about each other in the cyber space ghetto, reaching for their mice and keyboards, ready to throw down. People were ducking in their cubicles when they heard the vicious clicking of keys typing.

Does that make William Drenttel a drive-by blogger?

And how long before there's a blog by women designers, for women designers, and about women designers? Might serve a need...

I've thought of it myself (I know, you're shocked) but am far too resistant to the "separate but equal"-ness of that idea.

> Yeah, that discussion for "The Power of Design Part II" was ugly!

I bet ya'll still read it. It's like a car accident: you know you shouldn't look because there is bound to be something ugly but you slow down your car, hold up the rest of the traffic and take a long look.

I can also do a reality TV-analogy, but that's too trite.

I've thought of it myself (I know, you're shocked) but am far too resistant to the "separate but equal"-ness of that idea.

hear hear.

someone tried to do something like this for gay designers a while back, but it was kinda lame. i think they referred to it as "queer" rather than gay, which is a highly politicizing term of self-reference among those of us who are, um, light in the loafers. i didn't understand that combination. and i didn't really see what my being gay had to do with my instinct to design, so i lost interest pretty quickly.

Well, since I started that particular little shitstorm oh so long ago, why not: QueerDA.

I don't claim to understand. I've just watched as the About Us statement has morphed from being some sort of ass-backwards call-to-arms for queer designers to make an issue of not making an issue of being queer("We're here! We're queer! ...What're you looking at? Oh, and don't associate us with those drag queen freaks.") to now being...two guys. Whatever. Self-imposed irrelevance.

Regarding the wimin designers site: Don't do it. You'll have more effect subverting the patriarchy(n' stuff) in a general forum than choosing such an arbitrary reason to splinter off. Genitalia(or what you do with them) are rarely justification for seperatism.

...flonqing typos...

*grumble*

I'm the 'queer' (oh yeah I said it.. lol) from QDA. I can't possibly justify trying to answer questions on a message board but if you actually want answers feel free to email me. I love the fact that typos (which there are plenty) always seems to play the roll of the deciding factor in what is good or trash on this subject.. hehe, that's great. We are professionals in the same industry as the rest of you who do this singular project on the side because we want to. We aren't getting paid for this and there isn't any fame involved believe me. Yes, the project alone has gone through many transitions but the end goal hasn't changed a bit. We're just happy people talk about us good or bad..I'd love to hear from any intelligent individuals with well thought out comments and an open mind. Honestly this is all out of fun and a love of what we do. If you want to see our 'professional' work go to www.burntgraphix.com (my old portfolio site which hasn't been updated in two years) www.burntgraphix.com/main1 (my, in the works new portfolio that isn't close to be finished) or www.exopolis.com which is the design studio I'm a partner in. For the fun of it, lets all say 'queer' together now, 1, 2, 3, QUEER!.. But for future reference my favorite word is fag.

I would be the other fag/queer/light loafers/richard smoker/pansy/panty waist/etc... involved with QDA. Let's see if I can offer some sort of explanation, but don't get your hopes up. Yes, the ideas of QDA changed considerably over time, but there is one major, major misconception about what we were/are doing...we were NEVER trying to be seperate but equal in the design community (we agree, who cares!)...we were just trying to be SEPERATE in the GAY community. QDA got posted on all of these here little "let's talk about important issues" sites only because of our connections (personal and professional) to the link'd up's and surfstation's of the world. That said, our original idea was to try and change esthetics within our own community. And we tried to recruit other flaming faggot designers to do the same. Then we realized that we didn't have the time to bother because we have lives (read "beer to drink") and changed what we were doing. Changing your mind...it's not just a woman's prerogative. As for the typos, our friends and people like you are the only ones looking at the site, so although they have been duely noted (over, and over, and over, and...) we really don't care that much. How's that for a throw back to early nineties slackerdom? Wouldn't David Carson be so proud! If you've actually read all of this, I'm utterly amazed. As for the name, we just thought it was funny...an ironic take on militant activism that neither of have any interest in. But then, we also think it's funny when people fall down.

From Design Observer to QueerDA� excellent thread pk. so, so� surreal?