I'll do anything not to become a sheep!!!

I've already sent my beeeh beeeh contribution

It was meant for two copies but somehow your button only assumes one publication per sheep (sorry, per person)so I guess if anybody else wants more than one they will have to press the button n-number of times (sounds rather pavlovian).

Very true, I'll figure something out in the next couple of hours.

Yay - "ordered".

Pedro, banging your head against the feed tube is an apt metaphor for much of what goes on here.

thanks for brightening my day. it's hot and sunny here in new york and i might as well be in antarctica for all the good it will do me this afternoon.

back to gathering wool.

?? I genuinely enjoyed the "Speak Up's Greatest Hits" collection for its nostalgic effect (ah, those heady days of early 2003...), I'm a bit curious about the intent behind it.

I hope its intended audience is people who have never seen the site. If this is true than I'm sure it will do a good job of getting a few more visitors into the house. If it is to inflate the stature of the site/community through the permanence of print, which I suspect is the case at least to some degree, then I think it's a bit misguided. Before I go off and get my Underoos in a twist however, does anyone care to offer any more detailed context for this other than the "celebration of an anniversary"?

I mean, not like you need to justify yourself, right? It's only Speak Up.

> I mean, not like you need to justify yourself, right? It's only Speak Up.

Man, can't anything just go unquestioned? What a bunch of hard-asses. Seriously, it's a fair question.

First of all, credit where credit is due, this would not have happened without Debbie, she pushed me to do it and we both put together the whole thing with lots of time invested.

Reason No. 1

Like you said Paul, the main reason was to show to non-readers what Speak Up is all about. That's why we launched it at AIGA, because a lot of people there did not know about Speak Up. We gave out approximately 400 of them, so we should be getting fresh lurkers.

Reason No. 2

Speak Up looks really good in print. Call it vanity, self-importance, whatever�

Reason No. 3

The one year anniversary was the perfect "excuse" to do this.

Reason No. 4

To inflate the stature of the site/community through the permanence of print.

; )

Charmin' and disarmin', Armin.

I was going to express concern about the dangers of believing one's own press, etc, but fuck it. Too much work to do today to get into that whole deal.

Please don't ever publish a Speak Up magazine, though. You'll break my heart.

Don't leave me hanging like this Paul. I would love to hear it, especially about that magazine comment.

Hard asses is right!! Even if it is self-righteous - who cares - It seems like it was something fun to do and it does get SpeakUp out there - I would have never found this site if I hadn't stumbled upon it through a late night google search.

A LOT of great things happen/are discussed here - why the hell not document it on paper?

Why do we have an obsession with sheep? Who knows really� for some reason sheep have been dubbed as followers and we are not here to challenge such time-honored tradition.

Farm Fact:

Sheep can not be pushed. They can only be led.

It looks really good, Armin, and is a very powerful promotional piece all around. I'm sure it has already lured new people to the site. I'll be ordering mine as soon as I can remember my goddamned Paypal login (for more than the minimum suggested donation even).

My only complaint is that out of the twenty or so quotes in the front matter and body, only two are from women. This seems less than ideal for a promotional piece intended to introduce Speak Up at a major professional event.

I don't know if it's just today, but it feels like I really needed to read this. Most of the time, I wonder why I am in this field. I feel alone for wearing colors, or for not giving two shits about the latest issue of Adbusters. For just wanting to work versus pontificating loudly at some coffee shop over how the signage there sucks. Or for wondering why we give ourselves awards, and why plumbers or barbers don't get in on that, too.

It helps to read this because there are others out there who spoke up about it, who aren't in the magazines, who aren't anywhere but here. It's enlightening to read opposing viewpoints thrust together, and finding yourself somewhere in the middle. Most importantly, it helps to know that everyone has just as many questions about themselves and the profession as I do. Even though I've been reading through the site this past year, I don't think it all hit home for me until this little booklet came out.

Expect my donation shortly.

Thanks.

All right, Armin, but when my client calls later I'm giving him your name.

I think Speak Up is a uniquely powerful example of the differences between the web and print. While a printed publication is completely static and fixed forever in a single moment, Speak Up is infinitely flexible and mutable.

This is not merely a feature of its medium, but an inherant part of Speak Up's success and vibrancy. The format encourages direct learning from one's peers: didn't understand something? Ask the author what they meant. Follow up. Challenge. This vanishes in print, shadows on a wall replacing living, breathing conversation.

Yes, I enjoyed reading some of those great quotes, but like I said, its merely nostalgia for a moment (or a series of moments) that has long passed. The words are there, in the archives, for as long as this site continues to keep them. Find something from last spring that interests you? Revive the thread. It is happening all the time and it is remarkable. Meanwhile, the printed piece justs sits there, being an aesthetically pleasing, ego-gratifying but, ultimately, unremarkable series of marks on paper.

Designers for print, myself among them, have a tendency to think of print as "true" design, because its the medium that first called our names. Something new is afoot here on this site. Don't sell it short by following previously blazed paths to legitimacy. You (and we, for the most remarkable thing about Speak Up is that its readers are its creators) don't need it. Not that it is some great evil or something, just unneccessary.

On the flip side; if it feels good, do it now and do it often. Follow your own muse, man. I'm just here as a spectator/participant and I begrudge no one the joy they can gather up.

Oh THANKS, max. Way to render my post superfluous!

My only complaint is that out of the twenty or so quotes in the front matter and body, only two are from women.

Believe me we tried.

Paul, you make some good points and I agree that print doesn't allow for the back and forth of the web, yet there are qualities of Speak Up that can be carried into that medium. Challenge is one of them and when more printed pieces start flowing, that will most likely be the focus. A lot of people have expressed their "worry" that Speak Up will not translate into print� that's the challenge we have going forward.

And Max, thanks for rendering Paul's comment superfluous! All kidding aside, I love hearing both opinions.

Sorry, Paul! :)

It's a good post, Paul, and usually I would tend to agree with you since I'm a web designer and deal with the print bias daily (it's not every print designer I meet; just like anything in life, it's the assholes you remember the most).

I love this little booklet dealie as an added feature to the site. It'll almost be like a yearbook for me, I think. A few years from now, I'll whip it out and grab some past knowledge nuggets that will help me through the day. There is nothing like holding something tangible like this in your hands, and I think we can all agree that there would be absolutely no point to the booklet if there wasn't such a great website surrounding it.

Isn't the whole premise to "stop being sheep" or "stop stealing sheep" to push yourself towards something original rather than following somebody's lead? I believe this is a goal for all designers to strive for, but I only find this publication ironic since it has appropriated (stolen) its title from a book title, "Stop Stealing Sheep."

I believe it is correct to ask the question, "why do we have an obsession with sheep?" But I believe you have only taken a baby step towards applying the lesson to this publication.

Believe me we tried.

Then I guess Speak Up is in deeper shit than I thought.

For those who don't know "Stop stealing sheep" is one of the best-selling typography books by Erik Spierkermann, and the line is something Fredric Goudy said. The title "Stop Being Sheep" was not appropriated nor stolen from this book. When we decided on the title (based on a comment by FitzGerald) we thought it was a nice cynic nod to Erik's book, I still have to send him a copy.

So, no it's not ironic Nick.

baaaaah

Armin said earlier, "The title was inspired (more like appropriated) from one of Kenneth FitzGerald’s accurate commentaries."

and Armin last said, "The title 'Stop Being Sheep' was not appropriated nor stolen from this book."

If it wasn't approriated, why did you suggest it was?

Not ironic?! I'm outta here!

Oh wait, I meant that ironically.

Armin, what was the reception of the piece at AIGA? I ask because I need to know whether I'm suing alone, or if it will be a class action suit. Unless you want to send me some wasabi peas as royalties.

If it wasn't approriated, why did you suggest it was?

I need to stop joking�

Sam, your wasabi peas are in the mail, got them at Vancouver.

I just want to say kudos to Armin for a nice design and for keeping it classy in two colors.

I ordered one this morning.

all comments, ideas and thoughts in Speak Up are property of their authors, reproduction of these without the author's or Speak Up's permission is strictly prohibited.

How have I never seen that before? And where are my wasabi peas?

I think Nick thinks Kenneth FitzGerald and Erik Spiekermann both wrote a book called "Stop Stealing Sheep" which FitzGerald was blatantly plugging by making the comment on the site. No wait, maybe FitzGerald and Speikermann are the same person. Has anyone seen them in the same room together?

Just one question, who is Erik Spierkermann?

Don't answe that: I am kidding. Sheesh.

Rebecca, you can get in on the class action suit if you want. We can sue for wasabi peas, but I hear Armin has some pretty nice cats...

The trouble is, every time I refer to the Spiekermann book to my students, I get mixed up with Talking Heads and call it "Stop Making Sheep."

Awesome, Kenneth--Tibor would love that, I bet.

Thanks for the copy of Stop Being Sheep. I'll pass it on to the Firebelly crew when I see them next. It's inspirational and a nice little promo piece for Speak Up. (I am not afraid of print)

I don't feel this needs to be analyzed excessively. Kudos to you for doing something for your soul and your professional community, be it on screen or in hand. There's no one way to communicate (thank God), so long as you do it well. Besides it's fun to share your hard work and passion with others. I look forward to the Speak Up agit prop poster, book, and Super Bowl commercial.

Happy Anniversary!

Is this a marketing piece?

No, I'm just trying to be a good citizen.

>Is this a marketing piece?

As someone that worked really closely with Armin on this, it is so interesting to read some of the questions that have come up in this discussion.

Re the title: I think the best way to describe it would be that it was inspired by Kenneth FitzGerald. Thank you, Kenneth. We had originally picked a different title, but when we came upon Stop Being Sheep, it literally stopped us in our tracks.

Rebecca, just so you know, Armin and I pored through the last years discussions to find more quotes from women to include. Most hopefully next year's edition will have more.

But Jonsel, I have to bite: would there be anything wrong if Sheepy were to be a marketing piece?

But Jonsel, I have to bite: would there be anything wrong if Sheepy were to be a marketing piece?

I'm sure you inferred my comment was sarcastic, but I'll answer. Simply, no. Why shouldn't it be? I got smacked in the Non-Marketing Design thread for getting semantic, and it probably seemed like I was anti-marketing. On the contrary, I'm all for it.

My only criticism is that the piece doesn't have anything by me in it, which means I'm going to have to try extra hard to say something meaningful in the future. (That was sarcasm again. The first part, not the last.)

I did my own (extremely cursory) research and came up with many smart, interesting comments by women—but few that were easily soundbite-able. I've said it before and I'll say it again: thank god for Debbie Millman!

You can now order more than one copy if you want to. When you go to the checkout page in PayPal enter the quantity under the Optional Instructions text box� unless you are concerned about the lack of women in Sheepy, then you can only have one ; )

In regards to the title: hey, talent borrows genius steals.

This piece was fucking great--will it necessarily "inflate" the stature of the community? No, because "inflate" to me implies that we'd be building up something that isn't there with bricks that don't exist. Its pretty clear to me that the substance and stature already exists, but this pieces just...enhances all that. Makes it tangible. And I love that.

One of the best things about Speak Up is that its not self-congratulatory at all, there's nothing false--people like it, we frequently say that.

You know what else is nice? Typically, while most designers comment on design, the only ones who are ever heard are those with a significant reputation, be it "Michael B." or Bruce Mau or Sagmeister. Which is fine, they each have great insights that deserve to be considered. But, so too do many of the "nobodies" out there, and this further demonstrates that the value of an idea is not contingent on the name attached to it at the end.

So very cool. Rock on.

and came up with many smart, interesting comments by women—but few that were easily soundbite-able.

Uhuh. I suppose this means I'm going to have to swear more, goddammit. (Is it humanly possible?) Look out, I'm on the warpath to get myself into the next Stop Fucking Sheep ... er ...

Rockin'

I didn't even remember I had said that.

I'm quoted saying something about a Banana. I best watch what I say from now on. ;o)

Whew. I hope I wasnt quoted in the damn thing.

Sheesh. No more hand jobs in the parking lot.

Promise.

Then I guess Speak Up is in deeper shit than I thought.

Sorry to go back so much in the thread, but I wanted to touch on this. I'm not sure why Speak Up is in deeper shit because of this whole lack of women thing. We have discussed this before, and after we did a lot of women posted more (thank you). At that point I never saw Speak Up as macho and I don't see it now. We are not unfostering smart commentary from women are we? I have a hard time understanding why this is somehow Speak Up's fault Rebecca.

One thing I do agree with you on is thank god for Debbie Millman!

I would like to hear more from women. That was one of the first things I noticed when I started reading the Speak Up blogs. It's like 90% dudes. Ladies where you at? What does this all mean?

Are female designers not as interested in design

issues?

Are there more male designers?

Are women more passionate their shoes than there typefaces?

Or are male designers too busy discussing design philosophy while women are doing all the work?

Any ideas?

I meant "about their shoes" and "their typefaces."

Like that wasn't a dumb enough thing to type, I had to fuck it up with typos.

Discuss.

Not to be confused with the other Rebecca.

I'm a woman, designer, worker, and human--in no particular order. I lurk, but rarely post 'cause I'm lazy.

: I am very interested in design issues, but I enjoy reading the banter more.

: I am outnumbered 2 to 1 by male designers at my company, but graduated with 20 women and only 1 man from the design program.

: I own exactly 9 pairs of shoes, but only wear 3 on a regular basis. I use over 20 typefaces regularly and love them all for different reasons.

: I do the work, but not all of it. It just feels like it.

Keep it up people. I have an afternoon to kill...

: I am outnumbered 2 to 1 by male designers at my company, but graduated with 20 women and only 1 man from the design program.

Yeah, me too.

What's happening here? I know there are a lot of women designers, probably more than men. You can see that by picking up any design annual or going to an AIGA event. That makes it even more confusing. When I come to SpeakUp or read Emigre, it seems like men are writing a large majority of the manifestos and critical essays on design. I don't want anyone to think I'm being chauvinistic, I'm just observing. I love female designers, I married one!

Why aren't women wasting as much time bitching about design issues as men? Maybe they are better at just listening? I would talk about what my designer-wife does, but I don't want to use her as an example.

Hey Armin, I think we might have a new discussion here. Does anybody else care?

At that point I never saw Speak Up as macho and I don't see it now. We are not unfostering smart commentary from women are we?

Good point, dude.

Who says women can't be macho? What is "macho" and since when did the no-bullshit, don't fuck around attitude become specific to men? If anything, Speak Up IS a tough place to participate in, people here WILL steam-roll you if your arguments are weak, this is the way it should be, and I don't care if you're some sort of freaky "new gender" type of being, it doesn't matter one way or another.

I swear to God, none of this is gender-specific and its a mistake to make an issue out of it. It will do nothing more than perpetuate the stupid stereotypes we contend with everyday.

I swear to God, none of this is gender-specific and its a mistake to make an issue out of it.

Nobody thinks SpeakUp or it's issues are gender specific. I think people are beginning to wonder why women aren't as proactive in design discussions? Nobody needs to place blame. I was hoping it could tell us something about our profession or maybe just professional discussion in general.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Coincidence the type is set in Dolly and the book has a title regarding sheep? Whatever happened to that cloned freak?

Type is set in Whitman by Kent Lew. Not sure what the coincidence would be though.

I assume it's inspired by this Whitman, not this one. One is a true American original, the poet of the people (there's your coincidence: populism), and the other is, uh, eye-candy.

Why do things always get interesting on days when I'm really busy?

I have a hard time understanding why this is somehow Speak Up's fault.

I'm not talking about blame, I'm talking about responsibility. If Speak Up cares that the vast majority of Speak Up participants are male, then it's Speak Up's responsibility to think about how it might act to correct that imbalance.

I think Aaron makes a good point: this problem is not specific to Speak Up, but Speak Up would be a great place to talk about this problem. I'm not sure why there seems to be so much resistance to discussing it.

On the other hand, maybe you don't think it's a problem—in which case you can put it out of your mind.

> it's Speak Up's responsibility to think about how it might act to correct that imbalance.

I'm not saying I'm not willing to change, but like you said, this is a bigger issue than Speak Up, I have no clue how to correct it and frankly I don't think it's something I myself can do� on the contrary it's what (without being sexist) women can do*. This is a toughie, I'll keep doing whatever it is I can to make it� what would it be? More accesible for women? How do I go about doing it?

> I'm not sure why there seems to be so much resistance to discussing it.

For me it's not resistance, I would dub it more as ignorance — so I'm open for suggestions.

* Take a cue from what Susan Archie did this morning — she came in, told her story, expressed her views and that was that. It's not that hard really.

I'm not saying I'm not willing to change, but like you said, this is a bigger issue than Speak Up, I have no clue how to correct it and frankly I don't think it's something I myself can do�

How about taking steps to change the fact that Speak Up has never interviewed a woman designer? Or has that task been left to the women contributors to complete?

Another thing that's within your power is to refrain from being patronizing towards the women who choose not to participate (as in "It's not that hard really"). I know at least a couple of women who don't participate because they are too busy taking care of their kids and their parents in addition to their careers to be following these discussions.

> How about taking steps to change the fact that Speak Up has never interviewed a woman designer?

I hadn't even noticed. It's not a conscious decision. But that suggestion, that I can do. Check.

> Another thing that's within your power is to refrain from being patronizing towards the women who choose not to participate (as in "It's not that hard really").

That is just twisting my words. If I was constantly patronizing then that comment would make sense. "It's really not that hard" applies to anybody out there, not just women.

> I know at least a couple of women who don't participate because they are too busy taking care of their kids and their parents in addition to their careers to be following these discussions.

Men have jobs, they have kids and parents too as well as responsibilities.

Sounds like I'm getting defensive, but I'm not� really.

Man, tough crowd.

What I think is interesting here as a byproduct of this little foray into print is the tendency of people to start thinking about being quote-worthy. Sure, some of your comments are meant to be sarcastic, but I think there's a tinge of reality there. Is the existunce of a compendium (and the possibility of future volumes) actually causing some of you to think before you post?

I don't mean that last question as a slam to anyone. Considering the speed at which some of the discussions are going these days, I'm often amazed at the quality of the discourse.

> Sounds like I'm getting defensive, but I'm not� really.

I know you're not, and considering all the complaints that get thrown around Speak Up it's a credit to you that you get defensive as little as you do. You're basically Speak Up personified, after all; any and all complaints land at your feet. I am trying to raise awareness of this issue, which means my complaints are landing at your feet too. I hope you don't take that personally.

Anyway, you're definitely not "contstantly patronizing." Not even close. But to be fair, I wasn't twisting your words: that comment was a footnote to your contention that "on the contrary it's what (without being sexist) women can do." It did not apply to everyone. It applied to women. I think you might not even have realized it, and that's the kind of thing I feel responsible for pointing out. Because I'm interested in this issue I sometimes notice things that others might not. Part of raising awareness is identifying that stuff and opening it up for discussion. Again, to your credit, you almost never get defensive when I point things out here and there, and on more than one occasion have expressed genuine gratitude. I know we have the same goals here and I appreciate your openness.

Men have jobs, they have kids and parents too as well as responsibilities.

I know a design blog isn't the right place for this particular discussion, but really. There are a lot more single moms than single dads out there. And while I would not be surprised to hear that child care and family responsibilities are split fairly equitably among the participants on this blog, I'm afraid a broader cross-section would show less enlightenment.

Man. That has got to be the longest thing I have ever posted. It better get into the next Speak Up promotional piece. ;o)

man oh man oh man!

Here I was thinking: end of the day, I should stop by and see how little sheepy is doing� you know since it first popped into the world. And what do I find? A longer than long discussion about it. Boy, was I surprised.

You may think I am biased, you know, me being by Armin's side most of the time (even though I let you borrow him for a few days Tan!) but one thing I do more that I should, is say what I think. When the idea of sheepy first started, I watched Debbie and Armin pouring over pages and pages of comments, calling each other, making sure they covered all that should be covered, that all bases were taken into account, and everybody disregarding names, titles, fame or publications. One concern that came up had to do with women. What did women have to say? Apparently, not much.

They dived into hundreds of pages once more only to end in the same place. Armin walked into my studio and asked, what is it with women? Unfortunately I could not answer. I find myself asking the same thing, and as I talk to fellow women designers I do begin to notice a pattern. Part shyness, part fear, part nervousness, part "what will they say?" and "what if I am wrong?", along with some, later, I will come back, let me think about it for a while, and sure I am a big fan of Speak Up! Really! It’s that I don't like to comment. Why? all of the above I suppose.

Rebecca, we may disagree on this one, but I think the women population in Speak Up has nothing to do with Armin or the rest of the “gang”. It has to do with us, we are the ones who are letting the “men” intimidate us into silence in the same way they have done for centuries. Am I surprised? No. It is our job to break this cycle, to find a new way of living and communicating, and it won’t be by pointing out the obvious. This has been done in many ways, in many places, with many more to come, and it is from these experiences that we as women need to learn and think about solutions as individuals.

You could say, I could start by participating more in Speak Up, by becoming more involved in the day to day stuff� You may be right, although you have to take into account that I breathe Speak Up in every corner of my life.

I don’t know what the solution to this “problem” is, in the same way I don’t know what all the hidden intentions are behind sheepy, for apparently there are many! I may sleep with this tonight and hopefully my muse shall visit in my dreams and solve all the mysteries.

> I know a design blog isn't the right place for this particular discussion.

Maybe this thread isn't appropriate rebecca, but I think the issues of working women designers is a topic moist with relevance.

After all, 65% of the profession are women. Start a thread and see where it goes. None of us dudes are quite qualified.

If Speak Up cares that the vast majority of Speak Up participants are male, then it's Speak Up's responsibility to think about how it might act to correct that imbalance.

What? Who are you defining as Speak Up in this instance? If its just Armin, it's not his responsibility, it is ONLY the responsibility of those who care about this. I for one don't care who says what. There are no censors here so what is said on this site probably reflects exactly what people want. Those who want something different should do something about it. If there are more dudes contributing, its probably because...more dudes are contributing. I don't see how Speak Up can encourage more female contribution without arbitrarily making an issue out of that, and the benefit of making an issue out of this is precisely minus-zero. Not worth it. The 1990s have passed us by.

Because there are no barriers to this forum--one need not even be a designer to post--because no Roger Ailes wannabe is sending out memos on what to talk about and what to say, what you see here is a pretty accurate reflection of what people want to say. If someone feels they "can't" say something here, obviously they do not want to contribute badly enough.

Really, this site comes down to what you want it to be. For something THIS wide open, blame and complaints are just a refuge and an excuse not to do something. From what I've seen, those who write frequently enough can become authors, those who are authors play a significant role in the subjects we discuss. It's self-determination at its best.

> even though I let you borrow him for a few days Tan!

I tried to take good care of him Bryony. But I just couldn't keep him away from the damn chocolate. I tried to offer him some dessert alternatives at a Chinese restaurant, but he just wouldn't eat it. It was chocolate 24/7. Don't blame me if there's a few extra pounds of Vit to love.

My dear Tan, I don't mind a few pounds of lovin', anything is better that to have him spooning with somebody else.

As for the chocolate, it's a long lost battle.

What did women have to say? Apparently, not much.

Ouch. OK, now my feelings are hurt.

But as for maybe why women don't comment as much: What Bryony said. I think in general women are more easily intimidated, and this is a tough crowd. My first forays into Speak Up were scary, and to be honest they continue to be--every time I post I'm thinking, "Fuck, who's going to kick the shit out me for that?" But that's half the fun.

I don't think there's anything you can do or write about to get women to comment more, unless you want to be provocative and start making overtly sexist statements or admiring thoughtlessly sexist design--then you'll hear from us allright.

Sure, maybe one of us could post a "What are women's issues in design?" kind of post, and that might be instructive, but really does it make any difference if you interview Paula Scher or Bruce Mau? Not to me. I think between us female authors we'll get whatever a feminine perspective might be across, and the rest is up to the design public.

I say fuggeddaboutit. Everyone's welcome here, and we're not going to create any safety zones where the timid can play safely. I honestly don't think about the gender of the people who post, although sometimes the words "genius" or "asshole" come to mind.

I really don’t get what Speak Up or design for that matter has to do with gender. I’m a woman and I don’t feel intimidated,left out or discriminated by the male posters here. When talking about design I want to hear intellegent, innovative, passionate people exchanging opinions and frankly, I get that as much from Armin, Tan, Sam, Bradley, Graham...as from Debbie, Marian or Rebecca. I’d like to think that we’re more than "men" or "women", that’s a very restrictive way to see things.

Yes, it would be great if more of us contributed and we could argue endlessly about why women don’t post as much as men (I agree with you Bryony that it’s probably a mix of many things), but really that’s beside the point. Speak Up is a great, inspiring place and it’s the "people" here that make it. Keep up the good work!

thank's Beatriz!

It's good to see somebody else shares my thoughts. The end result is what really matters, not if "he" or "she" was the one to help provide it.

What a knotty problem. The thing about sexism, like racism (and we could be having that discussion as well--it's even less talked about in design and yet it's perhaps an even bigger problem in society)--the thing about sexism is, just because there's no institutional policy of exclusion and/or intimidation doesn't mean people don't feel it. In other words, no there's no sign on the door of Speak Up saying "Dudes preferred" or "Ladies' comments politely accepted but..."--and yet there can still be a tone about the comments we all make that creates an atmosphere that is less inviting rather than more inviting. It's all a question of degrees anyway, not policy.

A case in point: lately (the last 2-3 months) I read a strong tone of "I'm going to say what I think and you all can blast me if you want but I'm going to say it anyway even if I'm wrong." This is maybe what Marian refers to as the "tough crowd" aspect. This attitude is starting to sink in as the ethos of Speak Up--that may be too grand a statement but it may come as a badge of distinction to some (and I don't mean Armin). This attitude (tone, ethos, etc), frankly, is off-putting to me for a whole host of reasons, but in relation to this topic I want only to point out that it comes off as blatantly macho. I can think of no other word for it. I can only imagine how much more so it would sound to a woman attuned to such tones.

I don't think macho here has to refer only to men. But it's a tone of aggression and swagger ("even though I may be wrong"!!) that I can very easily imagine keeping lots of lurkers from contributing. Now some may say that if lurkers are intimidated, they don't have anything to say or they don't want it bad enough (whatever "it" may be) and it's on their shoulders to speak up and if not too bad.

And I say that is too bad.

This attitude (tone, ethos, etc), frankly, is off-putting to me for a whole host of reasons, but in relation to this topic I want only to point out that it comes off as blatantly macho. I can think of no other word for it.

Dude, I so agree with you.

*grunt* *belch*

hmmm, now that I think about it, you could be right Sam, it may not be a conscious "macho" tone but it is there and it’s definetely different from what an all female conversation would sound like.

This attitude (tone, ethos, etc), frankly, is off-putting to me for a whole host of reasons, but in relation to this topic I want only to point out that it comes off as blatantly macho. I can think of no other word for it.

I believe there is a word for this "tone": honesty. It's just that we are not used to hearing it so bluntly and so constantly. That's my take on it.

Here is a question, since we are openly talking about Speak Up's personality, has this "tone" become aggressive? I don't think it has, but that may be just me.

It's not simply honesty, Armin. It's the words that we choose to express that honesty. Honesty can be spoken in any of a myriad of ways--profane, blunt, academic, delicate, sarcastic, on and on--we see it all here. It would be nice to call it honesty, but I think that's not only self-serving but naive (again, I'm not talking just about you, Armin). It strikes me as Speak Up propaganda and not really addressing the issue.

I'm talking about something else--something that builds up over time. Like the clubbiness aspect that came out in talking about DesignObserver--it's a tone that comes through the words.

And I put this to the floor: does picking up on a "tone" (granted, it's tenuous) have to do with the way other people write or the way you (and I and all of us) read? Writing gets short enough shrift, but reading (esp. the multitasking style of reading a blog while doing work and eating donuts) is basically ignored. We have to take responsibiltiy not only for the way we write, but for the way we read too.

Armin, what have you been reading? Just calling it honesty falls a little short of describing the tone most of the time.

I find that lately when I post I'm cursing like a sailor. So, I guess the best way to put it is that it's aggressive honesty... half the time with a bit of hot air. And it seems to come from every regular poster at one time or another. And it can be annoying and off-putting, or devastatingly amusing and enlightening.

Darn tootin' if Sam didn't take the words right out of my mind. I swear, that's what I was thinking. (Even the donuts part.)

Smarty Sam just put it more eloquently. And posted quicker. :)

> Armin, what have you been reading?

I guess I just get past the "tone" and read what people have to say, but again, that's just the way I am.

> I find that lately when I post I'm cursing like a sailor.

Yeah, that last post on Rebecca's thread was very spiced up.

"does picking up on a "tone" (granted, it's tenuous) have to do with the way other people write or the way you (and I and all of us) read?"

Mr. Sam. I think 'tone' has been a very important aspect of the site. At the conference, it was easy to realize midway through our first dinner that the authors all spoke like we posted. It was nice to recognize that element - and that people can find a way to emote their conversations in this text environment. Even if at times it's pissy and all twisted up.

Re the clubiness� I have a lot of problems re last week.

�

On a side note, Thank god you've weighed in on some of this Joy. I've missed seeing more of your posts.

This is in response to the questions/remarks earlier in the thread about the title of the book.

and the line is something Fredric Goudy said.

Fredric Goudy said "Anyone who would letterspace lowercase would steal sheep." I have always loved that quote because it speakes to the importance of good design. Or what Goudy thought was good design. Letterspacing lowercase letters was, in Goudys mind, a crime. The book was written to help people stop commiting design crimes of bad typography. Don't steal a sheep, make good design.

And in that respect I think that this quote, taken either from Kenneth Fitzgerald or Fredric Goudy, is very appropriate to this forum. People are speaking out about what they have passion for. It is an important thing in this world to have passion for what you do, and to defend that passion. Don't be a sheep, think for yourself.

Also in response to the printed piece vs. the interactive immediacy of the web, my favorite threads have been in reaction to a printed piece or article. If nothing else, "Sheep" has been a great catalyst for a teriffic discussion on gender in design, and I can only guess that future pieces would act in the same way.

I do have to mention that the Goudy quote is my second favorite. My most favorite is "Small type is a privilege, not a right." Bonus points to anyone who knows who said that one;)

There's no getting past tone, Armin. As a professional communicator, you should know that. You must embrace this aspect of Speak Up, not "get past it." (tone: patronizing).

C'mon dude, everything's got tone to it! It's the shiznit at the heart of Speak Up! Jump in the water's fine! (tone: fraternal).

You can't make me believe these 2 statements have the same effect on you, even though once you 'get past the tone' they say the same thing. Anyway, the of this whole discussion is being less oblivious to tone, isn't it?

See, I prefer the patronizing tone.

Anyway, not to bogart the thread. Tone may be one of the factors in the male/female balance--it also may not be. Anyone else want to suggest others, here or in Rebecca's thread?

"I'm going to say what I think and you all can blast me if you want but I'm going to say it anyway even if I'm wrong."

That's the point of the site. Ideally.

It IS on the shoulders of those who don't feel comfy with contributing to...contribute. What good does it do them if everyone, by calming down or controlling their tone, "enables" or "empowers" the shy to speak? Sure, there are probably obstacles on this site that some people have a hard time hurdling, and they likely didn't create them--but tripping over them is THEIR choice.

However, if it gets to a point that everyone stops listening and only waits for their next opportunity to rant, well...that's a problem. I see what you're getting at, Sam--that people say "even if I'm wrong," but in reality they're just tacking that on out of obligation without acknowledging that they might be incorrect.

I think that people have always been pretty decent about listening to others, but, I also sense that not everyone quite buys that right now. The only solution to that is to listen, and to listen fairly.

Either way, sex and race and whatever else don't enter into this equation.

Bradley, put the book down and step away from The Fountainhead!

Back to the original intention of this post: thank you to everybody who has donated and ordered Sheepy. The first batch went out yesterday and I will mail another batch tomorrow probably. These are going by regular mail so they won't get there as fast as the tees. Also, if you get a mailing twice don't worry about it, keep it. And if you ordered one but it has been more than a week let me know and I'll mail another one.

Armin,

I wanted to thank you and Millie again for working so hard on the book. It’s works really well as a pdf and as a handout. I have a couple at the gallery and have already mailed some to intimates.

It was my great pleasure to spend time with you and the other authors in Vancouver. Having the booklets to connect with other designers was really a great advantage and will hopefully go a long way toward cultivating interest amongst our peers. I’m still surprised at how many people don’t know we are here. Slowly that is being corrected.

I’m still deeply touched by watching a student stop and pick up a copy of Sheepy. She stopped dead in her tracks after paging through it briefly and began to absorb some of the content. She stood in that spot reading it and outlasting the rest of us who eventually marshaled off to another speaker.

So thanks for all the hard work.

I’m still trying to get my bearing after this last week’s worth of discussion. I think it was Lance that addressed that those of us who were disappointed with the message the AIGA was selling at the conference were “acting out of fear.” Though I’ve backed away from fanning the flames re the conference, I can say honestly that the only time I’ve acted out of fear was in staying away from the unfortunate sexual politics that was introduced in this thread earlier. I don’t think that asking the populous here to change the way they write in order to �appease’ is a responsible answer. The honesty here is what I support, bigoted or otherwise. I’d also like to thanks Bradley and Tan for what I didn’t have the time or courage to address.

Eric wrote, The honesty here is what I support, bigoted or otherwise. (emphasis added)

Stupefying.

I’m sorry sam, but I don’t catch the drift of your comment: barb or bon mot? I thought I was very clear that I think people should be allowed to express their opinion regardless of how discordant they are with your (and Your) personal agenda.

I would rather honestly know with whom I’m dealing. I haven’t agreed with many of your comments in the last 48hrs but am happy that you feel free to express them.

Barb, Eric. I deleted the rest of the comment.

Here's the thing, while it's all fine and good and proper and very much the party line here at Speak Up to take the road you're taking, I have 2 issues with it. One, there is a huge difference between the words bigotry and agenda. Both are loaded in very different ways, but they certainly aren't synonyms. I think it's even stretching it to say commenting here is carrying out an agenda, but that's a different enormous discussion that I don't want to get into. But promoting or welcoming bigotry or even accepting it under the banner of everyone-has-their-say, whether it's typographic or regional or web-vs-print or political or whatever, no thanks. 'Bigotry' was the word I was reacting to (and I do indeed appreciate that it's not solely a racial term). Besides, that's not what happens here anyway, vis-a-vis the so-called bullshit meter.

Two. Forget it. I'm tired of my own thoughts, and I can only imagine how tedious they are to everyone else. I'm also tired of the role of vox clamantis in deserto, so yeah, back to the design stuff.

Sam, I agree with you that this point is tired but find it offensive that you are conflating two posts to an unfortunate juxtaposition. So I’m confused where your anger comes from.

I didn’t mean anything other than exactly what I wrote. Your inference is perhaps what I meant by �agenda’. I was very clear that I was talking about the speaker’s point of view not alluding to some sort of Speak-Up doctrine.

And saying that by promoting honesty and openness that I am somehow complicit in Bigotry is pretty shitty thing to say - and faulty logic.

The honesty here is what I support, bigoted or otherwise.

And saying that by promoting honesty and openness that I am somehow complicit in Bigotry is pretty shitty thing to say - and faulty logic.

Dude. Explain the logic in that.

Eric, I'm not angry, really. But you did introduce the word bigotry and you quite clearly stated "The honesty here is what I support, bigoted or otherwise." I certainly did not say your comments themselves were bigoted, nor do I mean to imply that about anyone here. That's not my place to do so.

Forget the agenda stuff. I don't want to get into it. Your 2 posts seem connected to me, coming sequentially and being interspersed as they are by my barb.

By the way, have I been promoting something like the opposite of openness and honesty? Have I made ANY prescriptive statements about the kinds of things that should be said or the kinds of tone that should be excluded? I don't believe I have. As Yogi says, you could look it up.

Rebecca, dude, go ahead and be a sheep.

you can either try to bully everyone into thinking exactly like you or you can approach people and ideas openly. I find it ironic that here i am a conservative republican trying to explain to an ardent feminist the importance of the first amendment and that not censoring Speak Up through some cuddly lens is probably a better way to foster diversity for man and womankind.

I wonder if this is my cue to step in?

Sam,

i've read your comments this last week, particularly herein, to Bradley and Tan (where they differ from you) as controlling and insistent — and that struck me as dismissive their opinion over yours.

I guess not.

You mean step in and CENSOR us, Armin!?!?!

The palace falls!

At risk of being dragged into this, perhaps this is really all about semantics? Bigotry is a loaded term, even if it does mean what I think Eric intended, and that is perhaps an intransigence on the part of some to be unwilling to see the other side of the issue.

I can't see how we are arguing over whether we are honest or not. That just seems to be ridiculous and, well, to use a phrase from another thread that got rather contentious, infantile. You guys are pissing over who supports the openness and honesty of Speak Up's discussions more. Please.

And you know what, honesty and openness also means simply agreeing to disagree. Anyone is very welcome to force an issue if he or she desires, and it is everyone else's right not to buy into it.

This must be the online equivalent of growing pains.

Eric, here is what I said yesterday in the other thread, regarding the prospect of attracting a more diverse readership to Speak Up:

"If I had to apply that lesson to the conversations in the last couple of days I'd encourage people to be more disciplined when posting comments. That doesn't mean throwing softballs or turning off emotion. The first post in this thread, by Beatriz, is a perfect example: she firmly and respectfully disagrees with me without getting combative, dismissive, or smart-alecky.

It's not a question of creating a safe space for the shy to speak; it's about creating a sane space where smart people take the time to develop reasoned arguments because they know others will listen and respond in kind, instead of (as happens here with depressing regularity) bulldozing over it with rhetoric or shutting it down with a "whatever." I'm not worried that those people will get their feelings hurt; I'm worried that they'll dismiss Speak Up as populated by a bunch of macho jerks and take their brilliant insights elsewhere."

I totally broke my own rule earlier with you Eric. It was obnoxious. Sorry about that.

No, no censoring, more like telling you what to say, I was thinking something along these lines:

Sam: I love you all

Eric: I love you too Sam

Rebecca: not sure if I love you, but I'll try

If this doesn't work, maybe I ban your IP addresses for a day or two.

Sanely put, Jon. Thanks.

Armin, I'll play Cordelia to your Lear any day.

Oop! High-minded again! Shame on me!

Hmmm, I should have stayed out of this.

; )

Tan: I love you too Armin. You smell like chocolate. Eric smells like Scotch.

Armin: wuss.

Don't stop now. I'm in month three of drawing grapevine training systems and when my hand starts to cramp around the 0.25 mm Rapidograph, I take a break and sit down to catch up on the fur flying here at Speak Up.

The insanity here is one of the only things keeping me sane during these long work hours. The other is the booze.

Do I smell a sister site?

Drink Up

We are not unfostering smart commentary from women are we?

Nope. Unless smart = sound-bite-able = a way to be featured in print.

I don’t think that asking the populous here to change the way they write in order to �appease’ is a responsible answer.

Nor should we ask voices to adopt a more combative/in-your-face manner of writing in the interest of getting set in print. Sheepy is Armin's deal: he plucked quotes that he felt represented the best of this site. No doubt Sheepy would be something altogether different had someone else compiled it. I just hope people don't change the way they express themselves in order to get into Sheepy Two (Too?).

I love the way this and other threads fray and meander. But I am a day late and a dollar short (now that I've purchased my copy of Sheepy)...so how 'bout passing the tequila.

having received a copy of stop being sheep today in the mail i have to admit that i don't like it. it just does not live up to the living forum. i think its missing the dynamic. it comes across cheap. and i don't think the beat-up condition had much to do with it. when looking at the quotes taken out of the context of the interactive forum, i looked at it and... just felt nothing. the quotes by themselves seem stale. wanting to be important, but even the infusions of "fuck this" and "fuck that" did not help me. the statements seem so wanting to be important. i'm sure within a heated discussion, these soundbytes -- or at least some of them -- would not invoke that reaction from me. i put it aside, picked it up later with no better reaction. i'm not posting this to rip the design, or the idea of the printed piece, i actually believe its a good way to reach others that are not plugged into it yet. i just wonder how others felt about it. i'm probably one of many that suggested that a speakUp book could be great. but holding this booklet in my hand, i realize how hard it will be to pull it off in a way that does the site justice.

Thanks for the honest feedback PS.

> i'm probably one of many that suggested that a speakUp book could be great. but holding this booklet in my hand, i realize how hard it will be to pull it off in a way that does the site justice.

I have given this idea a lot of thought and even more twists and turns on how it could be done. So far I have come to one conclusion: it will never be the same as the web site. But at the same time it is unrealistic to hold any printed materials from Speak Up to its online "dynamics." The challenge is there, maybe one of these days...

For what it's worth:

I love this site. It's now my default home page. I read the latest comments as if it's the Sunday newspaper with my coffee in hand. When the opportunity came up to buy "Stop Being Sheep" I donated a little extra for the cause.

Why? I work at a shitty job, where I feel they believe people are, well, sheep. They would not appreciate or respond to an ad or piece that is "good" design. Sort of like the Target/Wal-Mart/Apple discussion.

What I just did with the link, is the beauty of Speak Up. The Speak Up community can go back to that discussion, read it and post new comments. That's what sold me on "Stop Being Sheep". The book just enhances what Speak Up is, especially for those who have no idea that Speak Up is out there. Anyone, new or old to Speak Up can pick up on any discussion. They can read quotes and then go back to the discussion on the site, post a new comment and most times get a response.

I came across Speak Up by accident, just scouring the Internet and it came up in one of my searches. It is one of the best finds I have have come across. Thank you Armin, Speak Up authors and Speak Up community. Don't change a thing.

here a couple more thoughts on it then... i always hate getting feedback of my work that has zero actual input. you know, the " oh, i like it".. or " this really does not work for me"... without any more thoughts to offer.

so here a some more. keep in mind this is monday am, before coffee... the format of the booklet might not work for me personally because i see them as very short monologues, not a dialogue. the other part is that by themselves they are too short to be essays, they don't expand enough. its always easy to make a big statement, but the part where you back it up, thats where it usually gets interesting. my reaction might have to do with me not being in this forum for long enough. I'm participating for maybe 2-3 month now. for "insiders" it might have triggered the "oh yeah, i remember that discussion"

i see your point that it shouldn't be the online forum and agree with you.

anyway, my coffee should be ready...

If anybody has ordered sheepy but has not received it after a week/week and a half please let me know and I'll mail again. Also, I have gotten 7-8 mailings returned, please make sure that you have your address correct in PayPal.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Speak Up’s Shipping Center

the mod stamp was a nice touch btw

My sheepy has been picked up and fondeled over quite a few times now... and when they ask where I got it - I am proud to tell them!

Again, Great job! SpeakUp does not need much of an explanation after "Sheepy" is read!

I have not received any Sheepy, as promised. As they say in Australia, wtf?

Weird. Neither you nor David W got them and I sent them together to NY. I'll send again, don't despair.

Sam, I just got this in my mailbox. See? I sent it man. The envelopes don't seem to close very well and I guess the sheepies just got out.

A few technical difficulties have put sheepy-shipping on hold. Don't worry, I ain't stealing your money, if you've ordered in the past week you'll get it next week at the latest probably.

Sorry for the delay.

:: smacking own head in disbelief ::

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."

--EDWARD R. MURROW

Darn it!

I need better envelopes. Sorry Grant.