Do you ever sign a contract with a printer, codifying the specs of the jobs and each party's responsibilities?

For small jobs, no. For larger jobs, yes.

Should you?

Our current set-up works in most instances. Time being an issue, this works best for our bare-bones operation.

What is your protection if something goes wrong?

As long as nothing is fishy in the quote that opens up the door for weirdness, I have found that you are usually covered if the printer makes a mistake. That said, if you pursue a job with a printer who has given you a bid that is open for interpretation (so to speak) then it's best to clarify those gray areas in writing up front, even if it's just in email and not in the form of a contract.

What do you do if a printer changes some element of your file, either something small like a screen value or the flaps on envelopes, or something big like the paper stock or the binding method? What happens when they just go ahead and do this?

If time is not a critical factor, then I point out the error and they redo the job for us (at their cost). If time is an issue, a discount is discussed. (eg., if it's a square flap versus baronial flap mistake on their end that doesn't seriously work agains the look of the piece; however, if it's massive sometimes we request nearly a complete freebie for that part of the project. Most vendors want to keep our business because of the volume of work we do, so this is something that gives us an advantage over smaller firms.

How often do you use new printers?

Personally, probably one or two a year. Among my department, probably about half a dozen annually.

How many regular printers do you or your firm keep in rotation, or do you stick with one once you find competent, agreeable people?

We have three we regularly use -- one for complicated, very high-end offset printing jobs, one for docutech jobs and some one-color work that have tight turnarounds (they are also one of our mailhouses so it helps with the quickie jobs), and one for high volume web printing (primarily for our magazine, circ. ~110,000).

Do you ever use a certain printer because your client asks you to?

Yes, of course. If it's a printer that we may not think is the best choice, however, we will get quotes from one we trust. Usually if our printer beats their price, the client is willing to make the switch to save a buck... and that, in the end, makes all of us happy because we get a good printer and they get funds back into their budget.

How do you negotiate prices with a printer?

I find that massive crying and whining helps. Just kidding. See below.

If a print estimate is too high for a client, to what lengths do you 1) change the design to bring printing costs down, or 2) get the printer to lower the costs (either by re-estimating or suggesting spec changes)?

It depends on the project. You can't always get a printer to go down on a price and sometimes the specs have to stay how they are. It's truly a case by case basis. Recently, I hand did foil embossing and diecutting on 400 holiday party invitations because we had a budget of ~$700 but the cost do to the final invites was $2,800. I didn't want to compromise the design, the client wanted the design as is, and there was no more money to be had. You can't always do this sort of thing, but sometimes with small runs I have been able to do parts of a project to help bring down the cost.

What are good ways to save on printing (ie, changing paper stock, lowering the number of colors, buying the paper (shudder) yourself)

We have bought paper ourselves before, but usually printers get such a discount that their (average) 10% mark-up means that the price is close enough that I have found it's not worth the extra hassle of planning how the sheets will run and purchasing the paper here. I like to get a budget upfront so that I can design with it in mind. Sometimes, like the case I mentioned above, your funding restrictions can be gotten around if you are willing do so some stuff yourself.

This is a great topic, Sam. I really appreciate that you brought it to the table. And, I'm really interested in hearing what others do.

How often do you use new printers? How many regular printers do you or your firm keep in rotation, or do you stick with one once you find competent, agreeable people? Do you ever use a certain printer because your client asks you to?

I used to have the freedom to get quotes from local printers. I had a couple of favorites I worked with and had established good relationships with them. Then about three years ago I was told I had to always go with lowest bid (it's a public university thing), and to include the university's print shop in the quote process. Well, 9 times out of 10 they had the lowest bid.

I rarely get to shop around now. And the quality of the pieces often suffers because of it.

We still do 2-color on site using an old AB Dick duplicator. While I have to be careful when designing for that machine (no tight registrations, for one thing), we're lucky to have a pressman who can finesse the stubborn thing and by planning ahead we can have fun with some of the jobs (overprinting with a third color and such).

Thanks Sam, I was going to do a post on this myself, so you saved me the effort.

Several years ago we found a small, local printer who is great. Knowledgeable, flexible, fast, cheap, and just great to work with. Downside is max 13 x 19" sheet, 150lpi. But we gave him all of our small jobs, and he made us happy (well, most of us, he's a little funny with certain people--not everyone loves him).

But for big jobs ... dealing with printers is perhaps the most frustrating part of being a graphic designer, for me. I have never had a print job (with exception of above) exceed my expectations, and the vast majority of the time I've been mildly disappointed with the end product. It's entirely possible that this is my fault.

I have worked with many printers (and I've stuck with one or two for long periods of time). It seems to make no difference: I've been lied to, and heard every excuse in the book, with blame for poor printing being laid on the paper, the design, the PMS colour, the weather, the files, the screen percentage (I've had a printer tell me it's impossible to print a clean 60% black--has anyone ever heard this?).

It's worth noting that I KNOW different papers give different effects, and I have experience with many different stocks; I also know my files are good and clean (because I've been commended on them countless times by printers and prepress people), and I know the dangers of knocking out of colour mixes at small sizes, and the pitfalls of CMYK mixes. I'm not stupid and I'm not a newbie, but fuckin' printers manage to make me feel like one every time.

My only consolation is that probably the best designer in Vancouver has told me there's only one good printer in town (and my company printed with them only once--not my project--because the client requested it and didn't mind that their quote was 3 times the competing quotes), so maybe it's not just me.

The biggest problem is clients shopping for price. No matter how much I tell them they can't compare an A-printer with a B-printer, they do it anyway, and go for the lowest quote.

If I really want printer A to get the job, I'll probably tell them their price was higher and usually they'll say they'll "see what they can do." But I hate nickle and diming people. I wish I could just find a great printer and say "I only print with Printer X. Period." I know some designers do it. I have considered charging a premium to print with certain printers because they make my life hell and cost me many extra hours of babysitting. There are certain printers I flat our refuse to print with.

Also I'm a pushover. I'm nice and friendly and I don't scream at people ... does that mean they bend over backwards to please me? NO. It means they know they can fuck me and get away with it.

What have I learned? Leave nothing to chance. I always provide a detailed spec, a mockup, Pantone chips, diagrams and instructions up the yin yang. (I've discovered that they usually don't read them.) They often provide similar specs in return with a place to sign off, plus the proof of course. Any changes from my proof to theirs or theirs to the printed sheet, they pay for. Obviously I pay for changes.

I also pad the deadline. I tell the printer it needs to be done a few days before the actual deadsline, and I tell the client it needs to be signed off a few days before it actually needs to get to the printer. I wish I could say this always worked, but ...

I almost always do a press check. It never ceases to astound me what condition many printers consider acceptable to call me in to look at. I will never understand why they don't somehow see it as being in their best interests to do the best possible job. Are pressmen idiots, or just colourblind? It shouldn't be my job to get the colour on the sheet to match the proof, but incredibly, it often is.

However, having said that I had an intersting experience earlier this year. Printing with a company that had almost never given me a satisfactory job, they got a new pressman--a guy from a firm that I had heard was great but they went under before I could try them out. Anyway, he did the best job on that press that I ever had. I was amazed--it was as much as I had hoped for (and he claimed he could have done better on his other/previous press). I got his name. I think the pressman really does make a difference.

But when it comes to problems on press, I really don't know what to do. The colour is uneven, the black is clogging up, the PMS doesn't match the chip -- this is when I really wish I was a 6' 2" guy with a deep voice who could just tell them to fix the fucking thing. Usually I hem and haw, look unhappy, ask them if that's the best they can do (to which they reply "yes"), and let it go.

What are good ways to save on printing (ie, changing paper stock, lowering the number of colors, buying the paper (shudder) yourself)?

I am a firm believer that if the client doesn't have the money, the job must be changed to fit their budget. I would rather change the job than squeeze a printer, or god forbid, spend my time hand foiling (???) or folding to save the client a buck.

OK, I'm sorry. This topic is upsetting me.

We have had long relationships with a handful of printers, and I've come to depend heavily on the people there for expert advice and help with schedules. But we have little flexibility in our budgets so it's easy to stick with a few vendors and remain relatively content. Basically I have no idea what I'm missing—although I recently sent a huge job to a reputable printer we don't normally use and hated every minute of it, so maybe I'm not missing much.

Marian, I am rarely happy with color either. And I think you are so right about the pressman. One of our printers has a rogue "night guy" who has been blamed for more than a couple of egregious color shifts.

But never having gone on a press check (nearly all our printers are in different parts of the country) I wonder if your experiences on press reflect the printer's tendency to punt when the designer wants to have a lot of control. I find I get worse results the more I try to micromanage, and have had some of the best results when I just sent a color laser and say "Match my proof, but make it really really yellow" or something similarly layman-like.

Do you ever sign a contract with a printer, codifying the specs of the jobs and each party's responsibilities? Yes, all parties should know exactly where it will all end up in look, feel and cash. Should you? if possible. What is your protection if something goes wrong? yikes people are pissed, if you have more time you go back on press if the mistake is takable you live with it if it’s a horror show you have your contract. What do you do if a printer changes some element of your file, either something small like a screen value or the flaps on envelopes, or something big like the paper stock or the binding method? you pay half for the job or less if you have a good production person, I hate when that happens..go on the press check ALL DAY and this kind of problem gets cut to a minimum. What happens when they just go ahead and do this? you don’t pay, you have your contract.

How often do you use new printers? As much as possible,it depends on how I’m printing something. How many regular printers do you or your firm keep in rotation, or do you stick with one once you find competent, agreeable people? I’d say around 9-10 unless it silkscreen or something custom then we may go oversees. Do you ever use a certain printer because your client asks you to? No, but you have to be a good talker to get out of that one, like get your printer to underbid, I don’t mean shady business, sometime clients don’t really understand the cost to be saved by using someone other than “their guy” prove it with an estimate!

How do you negotiate prices with a printer? Again, paper, colors, process it depends. If a print estimate is too high for a client, to what lengths do you 1) change the design to bring printing costs down, or 2) get the printer to lower the costs (either by re-estimating or suggesting spec changes)? Sometime a little of both you decide what’s most important to the communication level for the piece then try to work with the printer —printers are good people usually, they want to work with you. What are good ways to save on printing (ie, changing paper stock, lowering the number of colors, buying the paper (shudder) yourself)? Don’t get to crazy with the smoke and mirrors, I love that the best solutions are the ones you need to finish in one day, I try to think of that on all projects, when there is cash you hype it up when not you get ingenious, that’s what people like us do..we do magic.

> Do you ever use a certain printer because your client asks you to?

Just to quickly address this question. We get this a lot -- many clients seem to think that they can manage costs more by dictating their own vendors. In many cases, it's not true, plus, it puts the designer in a powerless position for quality control with the printer.

But I don't tell the clients that. I remind them nicely that as a design vendor who serve many clients, I buy x million dollar's worth of printing a year, from a variety of vendors who are chosen based on a number of criterias. In comparison, the most that any client would spend in printing is just a fraction of what gets sourced through our shop. So as a result, we will always have a stronger purchasing leverage for their dollar. A side benefit is more familiarity with the vendor which leads to better quality control.

That argument works well for me.

We had a printer totally blow a job for us - they print virtually the same job for us 6 times a year and this time they really messed up the job. It's time sensitive so we are negotiating a big discount. I guess it happens. People are human.

We don't bother looking for new printers. Usually we are very happy with the work we get. We work with a small handful of printers. Nearly all our jobs are regular, very similar, work, so our relationship with our printers factors in a major part. My dept. does in-house design for a Non-Profit Organization.

Sometime's I think printers are like car mechanics or lawyers. It's all very mysterious and scary until you become more educated about their subject.

I have worked with the same print sales person for the last six years. I work with a number of other printers too, because of our volume of work, but I enjoy working with my print sales person for a number of reasons.

1) Because I have learned enough through going on press with him to strike fear into the hearts of pressmen anywhere. And I let no one get away with anything. You have to be the one setting the standards.

2) He shops pricing for me. He sorts out the quality/cost index and always squeaks out the best work for the least dollars.

3) He is honest with me and if there is a problem with one of his jobs he takes care of it and gives me no grief.

4) We have worked together long enough for him to be able to do internal rounds of proofs before sending me something very close to perfect. Which is great because if I don't see the proof, I don't have to pay for the proof. Or the changes.

I have also worked with any number of printers who I think are scum-suckers who liked to think they could intimidate me into 'just signing off' on things because I was just some little chickie, and they were a big man who didn't want to spend the time ($$$) on press to correct the job and do it right.

That never works for me.

And I always have a very clearly specced contract.

I think I have to go take a kick-boxing class now.

;-)

i don't really negotiate with printers, just as i don't really negotiate about my fees. i expect an honest price and the printers i ask for estimates know that. i hate printers that come back, trying to beat a lower quote. i tend to use the same few printers over and over. i know what to expect from them. they know what to expect from me. and if you get along, i believe you push each other to do better. often i will not ask for various quotes. its part of the trust i show in my printers and they know that and deal with me accordingly. if billing goes through me, i pay all my printers on time. none of that 60+ days bullshit. initially they got my interest because they genuinely seemed to care about design, appreciated good design work and went the extra mile to accomodate for a more challenging job. i don't believe in the free lunches that all the sales reps seem to be so generous with. a great relationship with a print shop is tough to beat. my favorite shop is not always affordable for my clients, but whenever possible, they will get the call. to me having a good printer on the job is half the battle. if anything goes wrong on the printers end, i'll be reasonable. after all, the same guys proably helped me out at some point too. lets not forget, even us graphic designers fuck up once in a while. and i hate the stupid pointing fingers game. i've gone to a ton of presschecks, but still learn everytime and to me the best part of a print job is still driving home from a presscheck with the fresh, sheet in my car. forget new car smell. this is better.

btw, does anyone else see the little icon for "printing" under the thread title as...ahem...a little um...you know, erect? Hey, it's my job to spot these things on SU.

Generally there's three factors to printing from what I've experienced. Those being quality, service and price. One of the three usually is slightly out of sync. You may get great quality and service, but you're going to pay more for it. Another scenario would be ok printing quality and cheap, but the service might not be what you'd expect.

I thought the icon was bit stiff too

I thought the icon was bit stiff too

i think there is some freudian theme going in the icons...

stiffy, an apple, a hand and two faces following each other... hmmm

probably all part of armin's grand scheme

ps

I have to say that handing over a mechanical is probably the most fear-inducing moment of anything I do. It's the point of no return. Comps can be fixed. But ink-on-paper? You're screwed, dude. I'm fortunate to work with a very nice printer here who gives me a heads up on any potential problems. I don't do annual reports of lots of brochures (yet) so I haven't put him (or myself) to the full test, but he's done a great job on everything I've asked.

One good thing to using a printer based in New Jersey is that he's almost always cheaper than the NYC guys without the loss of quality. I've had to argue against the cheapest bid on a few occasions. I like Tan's argument, although I don't quite have that amount of leverage. I usually offer that they haven't skimped on the design — they've gotten quality design work — so don't cheap out at this final, important phase. Nothing like a nice logo on inconsistently printed and trimmed business cards on a #3 sheet...

> I like Tan's argument, although I don't quite have that amount of leverage.

well actually, since the print market took a nosedive -- I don't have that amount of leverage either. It's more about posturing for control of the situation for the benefit of the job.

But the client doesn't know that, do they?

Just one key thing -- in this day and age, it's wise to get a credit check on any design/print job worth more than you can afford to lose. And never float a print bill through your office unless you can afford to pay it off yourself if need be. Many firms have been destroyed by getting stuck with large print bills from bankrupt clients. The risk is not worth the markup.

Many firms have been destroyed by getting stuck with large print bills from bankrupt clients.

Another good point. At my size (one person, two cats), I don't even attempt to do the markup. I have the printer bill the client directly. This is fortunate, as I recently discovered, when my printer accidentally misquoted the job at several thousand dollars below what it should have been. He had to work it out with the client and I got to stay out of it.

perverts.

I found marking up the print cost, either 10 or 15%, to be a sucker's bet. The client inevitably thinks the printing is too high, and I end up putting more labor into bringing the cost down, and along with it my markup. Better to fold the markup into the design fee and tell them some designers add a markup, but you don't because you're just such a damn nice guy.

It burns me up that clients will gripe about a $5000 design fee and then turn around and pay $12,000 for printing without a peep.Somehow it seems like design and printing should cost the same. But I know that's not realistic, if not a little perverted.

I found marking up the print cost, either 10 or 15%, to be a sucker's bet.

i'm with you sam. i bill the client for my time involved in searching for the right printer and managing the job. i don't buy printing for my clients because i, too am a small shop (one person a wife/critic/office manager and a dog) and can't afford to get screwed on a print job.

i make sure the client sees the latest, greatest proof before press time— even if it's a small change. if something goes nuts on press, i feel comfortable reaming the printer on behalf of my clients, but if the cost of printing needs to be reduced due to an error the printer made, i let the client and the printer duke it out and i let both parties know my envelopment at the onset of the project.

i usually work with 3-4 printers depending on the job. the relationships are good and there are rarely any problems.

i just recently i bought paper to save a client some cash and the hassle of getting the stock and getting reimbursed before the final invoice was sent was more trouble than it was worth. won't ever do that again, plus it pissed off my office manager.

The print markup route is very risky -- but it can be very lucrative, depending on the client and the printer. I once worked at an agency that had a large national bank as a client. The firm designed everything from rack brochures to credit cards -- and most of the printing went through one large print vendor. Huge quantities as you can imagine. I can't elaborate on the exact details, but I can tell you that the print markup revenue on the jobs was greater than the design fees, which was high six-figures. It's also not uncommon among firms that have large annual report clients, where the design fee can be as little as 10-15% of the total project budget.

This revenue model is more akin to ad agencies, where media buy revenue is significantly higher than creative fees. If clients will accept that type of pay structure for their ad agencies, then why shouldn't it work for design agencies? Well that's the thinking, at least.

Anyone here from a larger agency that can relate?

I do have a question that wasn't on the first list. How much work do you put into getting your files ready for the printer? By that I mean, do you yourself set up bleeds, trapping, creep, folds, die-cuts or do you leave it all up to the pre-press department?

To answer my own question, I at least set up all the bleeds for all my documents. I never, ever mess with the trapping, that kind of freaks me out. Same for creeping. In short, I leave most of the stuff to the printer. I just cross my fingers and hope they don't move shit around, they usually do though.

I always set up bleeds. It's too easy not to. For a die-cut, I'll supply a die-line layer that doesn't print. They can do with it what they like! I wouldn't mess with creep or page imposition either. I provide reader spreads and let them do the moving. If something is going to cross the gutter, I get their input on how best to allow for it.

How much work do you put into getting your files ready for the printer? By that I mean, do you yourself set up bleeds, trapping, creep, folds, die-cuts or do you leave it all up to the pre-press department?

Bleeds -- yes.

Trapping -- no.

Creep -- yes. (If I don't, I'm usually asked to do so, or at the very least consulted when they are doing it. I love my printers!)

Folds -- yes, specs are sent and a mock-up is created when the file is submitted.

Diecuts -- yes, like Jonsel I provide this as a separate element in the file.

Not mentioned, but worth noting since I did it recently for the first time... I had to set up the embossing alignment based on the proof from the die artist. Now that, my friend, was fun albeit a little scary.

Maybe the Hulk has some printing tips they could add? (the Hulk btw is a person that was comlplaing in a different thread on how designers set their files up)

Surts, do you remember where you saw that? I'd like to read it myself.

since i just came out of school, i'm basically a newbie to the production and printing process, and it would really awesome if you guys could give me some feedback on this situation and if you think it will turn out okay?

I just finished a catalogue for an artist and he's getting it printed in China where he has a good connection and of course, super cheap printing. He's done a low-end newsprint catalogue with them before on something entirely different, but this time around it's to showcase his artwork.

Anyway, I've had a couple printing situations before where I've sent the files in with a colour laser printout. The printer provides a digital printout. We sign off on that. And then we go in for press checks. and sign off on the press checks..

For this situation, I finished the design and had a laser output of the book, but it was from my work printer which was not calibrated correctly .. or my monitor wasn't.. so I told the client that my laser output would not be accurate. I knew the colours were totally off. But in this project, colours have to be right on, so he told me that they use a Xerox printing colour machine to "proof" things in the China printing company.

And they DON't do press proofs. (wha?!)

They said that the proofs from the Xerox is very close. I assumed it would be a Xerox Docucolour, and took it to damn Kinkos and printed a set, fixed the colours, printed more sets etc. And so I sent a final laser output from Kinkos along with my files to China.

I've basically covered my end, I did the design, had the client approve the colours on the Xerox colour output.. but what about the printers in China? How do I know they will match my output? Don't all printers do press checks?

How do you guys work with printers from different countries?

----But never having gone on a press check (nearly all our printers are in different parts of the country) I wonder if your experiences on press reflect the printer's tendency to punt when the designer wants to have a lot of control. I find I get worse results the more I try to micromanage, and have had some of the best results when I just sent a color laser and say "Match my proof, but make it really really yellow" or something similarly layman-like.

rebecca do they send you proofs back before they run the jobs?

Life After School Rebecca.

I do have a question that wasn't on the first list. How much work do you put into getting your files ready for the printer? By that I mean, do you yourself set up bleeds, trapping, creep, folds, die-cuts or do you leave it all up to the pre-press department?

I always set up everything but the trapping. Folds and trim are always called out on the file and on the proofs i provide them with. The die cut is on its own layer in a spot color renamed "diecut", set to overprint. I rarely work on documents with enough pages to have to worry about creep, but the printer would handle that too.

i once worked at a design studio where the principal refused to pay to have the printer do the trapping. I can't tell you how much stress this caused me, especialy when I completely messed it up once. I was sick to my stomach when the client called me and said " the type looks kind of..uh...fuzzy" and I knew I had blown it. Never, never, never again.

Now I'm working in-house with a purchasing agent whos like a walking encyclopedia of printing knowledge, so I'm pretty spoiled as far as that goes.

Also I'm a pushover.

All evidence to the contrary, Marian! ;)

I too have found that your relationship with the pressperson is vital. Of course, this assumes that you have the luxury of going on press checks, which can be tough unless your printer is local or you have the funds and time available to travel.

Back when I worked for a tiny publisher with barely any resources, I turned in desperation to a local printer because they were cheap and their schedules were great. For the first year I was regularly subjected to verbal lashings by their premier pressman, “Tony”, a grouchy curmudgeon who blamed all the world’s ills on “those damned designers.” (Hey, wait� Tony� the HULK�a connection?) But in the end I gained a greater understanding of the printer’s limitations, which helped me make better, more informed design decisions. What we can easily achieve on a good ink jet printer is often unobtainable in offset printing.

The challenge continues, even though I work for a large publisher now. We use a small, decent pool of printers, and we have a commitment to investing money to achieve high-quality work. Yet we still have problems with inaccurate color, uneven ink coverage, and the like. So I meet with our vendors regularly for roundtable discussions. They tell us what has worked (and hasn’t) re: the way things are submitted, and we in turn give them our pie-in-the-sky requests for stuff we want to achieve in our work. They love to see if they can deliver on those requests. Sometimes they can; sometimes, not.

So, like many of the posts to the various threads on Speak-Up, it comes down to communication. Do it early and often, to make sure you get what you want. And as the early years with Tony taught me, if you are tentative, they’ll blow hard and knock you off your feet.

oh and one more thing to my post,

i couldn't communicate with them, the only person I could talk to who could speak english was the cousin of the printer...who didn't know much about design/printint/production...

anyway if anyone could provide some feedback to my lowly post... that'll be great.. if not.. i'll return to the shadows...

Gigi:

Couple of things:

You aren't going to get a press proof, because the cost to set up a press, print a proof, take the job off press, then fedex you the proof and wait for your reply would be outrageous. I don't believe that anyone does this, high or low cost.

I also hate to tell you that the time and money that you spent at Kinkos may not be worth it (if i'm wrong about this, someone please correct me) because their Xerox color printer is not going to be calibrated like the Kinko's printer. Their printer is set up to produce a print that is as close as possible to what you'll get off the printing press, so that you can sign off on color, or request changes.

I am surprised that they don't also send a blue-line proof after you approve the lasers. This is your only chance to make sure the film (if they are using film) was made correctly, and that everything is lining up.

If the printer is good, they will use the proofs that you sent, if you marked them as color accurate, to match on their system before sending you the laser proofs.

I've only run one overseas job, but this seems to be standard operating procedure. I'm assuming that the budget for this job doesn't allow it, but often, if color is critical, you can fly to china for the press check, it's the only way to be sure that you will get what you want.

Thanks for the Hulk url Armin, it's been a bit busy for me today - like most people I'm sure

Now I'm working in-house with a purchasing agent whos like a walking encyclopedia of printing knowledge,

What I wouldn't give ...

Before I became essentially un-single, my dream was to find a printer for a boyfriend. Not because I have a penchant for beer-bellies and overalls, but because I imagined how great it would be to have someone who would give me an opinion about what could or could not be done on press, balanced between his knowledge and loyalty to his profession, and his undying love for me ... sigh.

Anyway, I knew I was a tiny mote on the pimple of design when I discovered what a press proof was, and that people actually do it, right here in Vancouver. I can't conceive of the luxury--I just think "Wow. Maybe one day I too will be able to have press proofs, and then fly off to Paris for lunch."

Gigi, I can't say i like the sound of your situation, there. Like Ben said, "If the printer is good, they will use the proofs that you sent, [...] to match on their system before sending you the laser proofs." But you don't seem to be expecting a proof. I can't imagine allowing them to print anything without one. You should get an accurate (as poss.) colour proof, and if you need to make colour changes, you should get another colour proof, then you should get a blueline mocked up as the catalogue so you can check that the file ripped OK, and the imposition/pagination is correct. Anything short of that would freak me out.

Thanks Ben & Marian.

I'm going to make sure to get the printer to send me, at the very least, colour laser proofs. From my client's previous experiences with this printer, it doesn't seem to be possible to have them send anything else! And blue-line proofs? I don't think I've ever dealt with those... I'll look into it, I think I've seen them once before when a teacher brought in some samples of the printing process...

But of course time is an issue and the client wants the books shipped first week of december!

Anyway thanks for your responses, very much appreciated!

re: marking up your print jobs

i agree it is not worth the risk of being stuck with the bill (being also a solo freelancer). I have set up this cool little system with my printer, which I use for 90% of my work. They mark it up on their bill for me and credit me the difference. whoo-hoo. easy way to save up for my self promos or stationary. If you have a nice print rep he/she will do it for you.

Do you ever sign a contract with a printer, codifying the specs of the job and each party’s responsibilities?

While I don’t use a formal contract, I do spell out in detail everything about the job,

including key areas where I foresee problems or concerns. This is after I have sat down and

discussed the project in detail with our rep.

The printer is an extention of me, my chisel so to speak and how my work is brought to

completion. I see printing not so much as a way to reproduce what I have created but how I can then take it to another level. Much the way you can when you print your own photographs, through dodging and burning, and even the choice of paper you use. So I take great care in picking a printer. After having a larger cocky printer screw-up a job early in my career, I vowed to find a printer I could trust. Trust is the key word, something most clients don’t

understand or care about until its too late. Twenty years later, they and a couple other small firms they have spawned, are my printers of choice.

How you establish trust with a printer?

The printer I often work with has a large sign in the press room which reads "shut up and

listen.” You can take this several ways. The first suggests that the pressmen should carefully

listen to what you as a designer are trying to achieve, and secondly, but even more importantly, suggests that even the designer can learn something from listening to what a good pressmen can tell you about your job. The proof is in the pudding. If you are getting good results its working. My printers don’t charge me for every plate change I make. If something is wrong we stop and fix it rather than spending hours trying to point a finger. If a solid match colour is needed, they don’t try to fake it with a screen to save a couple bucks. Time can be better spent running the job properly with extra match colours, rather than screwing around with multiple screens. Its surprising how many printers will try and create short-cuts, only to have to come back and reprint a job at their expense because it was done wrong.

What do you do, if the printer changes some element of your file?

I expect some elements might have to be tweaked. I trust that the printer I have chosen knows enough what changes to make because we have talked in great detail. Even then, after talking, I follow up the conversation or meeting with a written memo. All my files are sent as key-line art with FPOs in place. All pre-press is handled by the printer, because if there is a problem, it’s their problem. I think too many designers try to make money by buying pre-press, scans and printing and it shows in their final product, but that’s their choice. Even though I don’t buy the film, I am very hands on reviewing the scans, and adjustments to the film. I ignore most colours proof because they are only a guide to placate the client. Working with my printer, we determine what adjustments are neccessary to the film, to compensate for the amount of ink and dot gain we will use on press. More art than science we seldom use a densitometer.

Few print reps even both to show up at a press-check, probably since they couldn’t contribute much anyway. Unless you are there, someone else is making decisions about what your project will look like, and it could be the pressman sitting out back having a smoke while the job is running out-of-register, or just the pressman making his own interpretation of what your job should look like.

I think too many clients and even some designers are taken in with reps who are great at

glad- handing, and buying expensives lunches but actually know dick all about real printing.

How do you negotiate with printers?

Before I even design something, it’s imperitive to know at least a ball park of what the client can afford. If they are upfront, they have to let you know, otherwise they are just playing games. While most people know when they shop for a car, the price range they fall into, the same can not be said about design. But still, most clients have a pretty good idea of whether they can spent 5, 50 or 500 thousand dollars. Do they want to buy a Mercedes, an Audi or a Toyota Matrix. I generally have a idea of which printer a job is suited for and what it’s worth. At that point, I feel out the printer to see if he is interested. More often than not, if you have

a long standing relationship, you’ll find you and your printer can find ways to make it work. A good relationship works both ways, meaning sometimes you have to give a little. A few simple changes can greatly affect the printing cost. Sometimes a slight change in design size can result in a better use of the sheet size, requiring far less paper and therefore lowering the cost of the project. Can you work with a paper the printer has on the floor? A great printer can do wonders on even the most awful paper, but if you fall back on this, they won’t look forward to working with you for long. As well, cheap paper can cause everything from stretch to drying problems to galvanizing.

If you must have three quotes, ensure all three are capable and somewhat similar. It’s

important to know, which printers tend to up-charge and which stick to their price? How do they handle problems?

Do you ever use a certain printer because the client asked for them?

I have had this happen on occasion, and find it’s ususally because most clients have little

knowledge of printing, have been either charmed by a print rep, or they have been offered

generous payment options, such as 90 days which can be attractive on a large sum of money. If the client can’t see the difference in your final product, it can be a difficult sell.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Ray Hrynkow.

OK, Ray, I love what you're saying, especially I see printing not so much as a way to reproduce what I have created but how I can then take it to another level.

But I've had two problems getting to where you are. The first is price. When the client values the lowest price above all else, what do you do? Is this a client problem, or is there somethng wrong with my powers of persuasion? I have often suspected it's ME, because a couple of times I've lost a job where the client was on a very tight budget, to see a final result a few months later from Designer B that could only have been produced on a larger budget, and I think "How did that happen?"

Do you just say, "I print with Printer A, and generally you need to budget about this much for printing?" How do you convince the client? Can they see the quality difference that we see? My (former) clients couldn't.

My other problem is, how does one find (in any of the given cities across North America) a great printer, or establish the kind of trust you have without leaving a trail of mangled jobs and bad print-relationships behind you? How do you know they're not going to screw you until they've screwed you?

Actually, my problems with printers have been not so much being screwed, as receiveing an endless supply of adequately printed jobs. There's nothing actually wrong with them. You can't go back to them and say "The colour's off" or "There's banding", they are just somehow disappointing, and when I compare them to work by HerraincoSkippHerrainco or SamataMason, I think how can I get to that point? (And I'm talking print quality, not design, which is another matter altogether.)

My apologies to all for my bad attitude. Maybe the fault lies with me, but I've always felt that until you hit the big leagues, with bigger budgets you're stuck with an incredibly frustrating situation in regards to establishing the kind of relationship that Ray describes with a printer.

> The printer I often work with has a large sign in the press room which reads "shut up and listen.”

I usually like to shut up and let the pressmen do their job. Unlike some people, when I see bad coloration on press I just say "Make it redder" instead of trying to be all know-it-all and say "Bump up the magenta 1.3% and diminish the cyan 0.75% please." Although I would kill to be able to push all those buttons on their big machine.

On the other hand, I can't stand snobby, attitude-laden pressmen. Although I can see why they would be pissed all the time: loud machinery, standing on your feet all day long, whiny designers and the papercuts, my God, the papercuts.