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Temperature Check

The Job Market. Is it up, down, stagnant, reviving, all of the above, none of the above?

I met with a bunch of students from my school recently and the job market is their number one concern. Is your firm hiring? Are your peers and friends finding employment?

On the flip side, are freelancers settling in as a significant segment of the workforce, the way temping was big in the early- to mid-90s?

Can y’all weigh in with your perspectives from around the country and/or the world?

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PUBLISHED ON May.22.2003 BY Sam
jonsel’s comment is:

I'm a freelancer, and I am because of the down market. Many studios here in NY laid off lots of people. By last summer, work was starting to build a little, but hiring was still frozen. Who do they call? Freelancers. Increasingly unhappy in my job, I saw this as an opportunity to do work on my own terms, plus try out some other companies in case I decided further down the road that I wanted another full-time gig.

This situation does leave me subject to the whims of other design studios, however. As they begin hiring again, my work will likely dip. So I'm slowly transitioning to a one-man studio, ever-so-slowly retaining clients instead of relying on filler work from other design firms.

On May.22.2003 at 09:50 AM
brook’s comment is:

In Minneapolis things are improving slightly. If you look hard there are a few firms beginning to hire back designers. This is mixed news for students...it's bad because there are many very experienced designers who are still looking for jobs. It's good because a lot of the firms are looking to keep their payroll low and are hiring interns and juniors.

On May.22.2003 at 09:54 AM
Bob’s comment is:

St. Louis is an interesting market right now. People are starting to poke their heads out a bit. As a (primarily) web designer for a small network consultancy business, our clients are starting to come around and open up a bit. I'm doing websites for mainly the clients who either didn't get them or did them so poorly the first time around that they need to get them done now by a professional.

As far as hiring is concerned, there's not much going on, and as far as I can tell, the freelance prospects here are fairly grim. Most of the people I know in the industry are scuffling along or continuing their educations.

On May.22.2003 at 10:02 AM
Tan’s comment is:

Seattle is a mixed bag. Along with San Francisco, we were the epicenter of the dotcom bust. And despite the Nasdaq crash, the city's design economy still largely relies on high-tech sector work -- Microsoft, Boeing, etc.

The print market is still dismal. There are projects out there, but the margins are negligent, and the scope short and narrow. The interactive market, on the other hand, is quickly recovering. But for many interactive agencies, recovery has come too late.

So good news if you're an interactive designer. All the big web agencies in town are hiring, including ours. If you're a print designer, then it's still Ramen noodles and mac and cheese for a while.

I've also seen one other indication of recovery. MarComm managers across the city are beginning to find work again. And that's generally good news for creative agencies.

I think we've seen the worst, but it will probably be 4-5 years, if ever, until we see the vibrancy we experienced a couple of years ago.

On May.22.2003 at 10:41 AM
armin’s comment is:

We are pretty busy here in our little corner of Chicago. We've noticed a desire for companies to do more design work but a tad hesitant of taking the final plunge (spending the money.) It's a shimmer of hope at the least. I'm not sure how most design firms are doing, but I don't hear much complaining as last year or the year before. As far as freelancers go, I think they are having a tougher time, but I wouldn't be able to back it up with any facts.

In terms of design firms hiring, foggetaboutit, it's Dead. That's right, capital D. Anybody who has a job will cringe to it like the last piece of fruitcake at thanksgiving dinner. At least the firms worth working for are not hiring, I've seen some postings in commarts (I have a weird fetish for job postings) for in-house designers. Nothing too exciting though.

And Tan is right, interactive work is getting a bigger boom. All the people who put up shit for web sites in the late '90s are reconsidering their online presence and are coming for some fixin' and prunnin'.

On May.22.2003 at 11:10 AM
Darrel’s comment is:

I agree with Brook. Things in the TC have been steadily getting better. I do know quite a few unemployed designers...but, then again, they're perfectly content not working (as I would be if it weren't for the family obligation thing... ;o)

On May.22.2003 at 11:11 AM
Sam’s comment is:

New York is strange. It seems there is some freelance work, as companies try to save on the cost of benefits and taxes. On the other hand, I've had a couple friends get really great jobs at top-notch design firms (one even had her choice of two offers earlier this year). I took this to be a good sign for everyone. I hope it's the case.

Last year was much worse. Contrary to pretty much everyone's advice at the time, I left my job last May--just gave up a perfectly respectable position in favor of self-determination. We had over 700 people send repsonses to the job posting. It was ugly. People wayyyy overqualified were eager to work for less money. New media designers were looking to "get back to their first love of print" (much to the schadenfreude of my boss). My sense is that there are still a lot of that happening, bt it's only a sense.

Now, I am finding clients who are interested in getting things made, and restaurants are still opening up every week it seems, but the budgets are very small. It's easy to get underbid, even by bigger firms.

On May.22.2003 at 11:32 AM
Sam’s comment is:

Also, I'd be interested to hear anyone's stories of how they managed to land a job. What works?

As I was leaving (see above), a guy walked in and handed us a self-promotional book and left. Said nothing. The book said it all--it was his work, his interests, his values, and it was well designed. It was probably the most compelling application we got. Didn't hire him (he wanted to work at Duffy), but still.

On May.22.2003 at 11:34 AM
armin’s comment is:

>Also, I'd be interested to hear anyone's stories of how they managed to land a job. What works?

You have to be in the right place at the right time.

For me, it worked in my favor that I could do both print and web rather well. Hey! two designers for the price of one. And with lots of charm. Great deal.

Leave your ego on the lobby of the place you are interviewing. Or the receptionist's desk. Or the corner starbucks.

What else worked for me? Confidence, I guess. Employers can smell it, so you better exude it.

Timing, timing, timing.

And yes, location, location, location too.

On May.22.2003 at 11:44 AM
Adrian’s comment is:

Things in the Low Country (Savannah/Hilton Head) are up and down. With the art college right here many agencies and companies are hiring fresh graduates or taking on a lot of interns. I was let go from a place last year for six unpaid interns. Some of the interns stayed on after their internships ran out and eventually were hired as freelancers.

I've noticed that a lot with some of the other agencies. Living in a small market city with an art college in town has made it a little difficult for experienced designers. Many businesses do not realize the potential hazards of hiring students or fresh graduates. They look at the botom line and are not concerned or even know what lack of experience can cost you in the long run. I hear the horror stories later on.

I did freelence for a while and it was tough. Many clients were holding off on projects until the war in Iraq was either going to happen or not. Like it really would effect their business anyway.

A friend of mine passed a lead onto me that he didn't want to take. I interviewed and sold myself through presentation. It's not a great design job, but I showed them that I wanted to work for them. When they hired me, the said my leave-behind-mini-portfolio was what sold them. No one that interviewed took the time to prepare and present like they wanted the job.

I landed my job through a solid portfolio, great presentation and an out of my way effort (which it really wasn't).

On May.22.2003 at 12:04 PM
Tan’s comment is:

>Also, I'd be interested to hear anyone's stories of how they managed to land a job. What works?

Yes, timing is important. Right place at the right time.

But fit is also important. I disagree a little w/ Armin -- being a dual purpose designer (print+web) isn't always advantageous. I find that as the interactive field matures, more and more design firms are becoming specialized, or looking for specialists. We do both in our office, but we look for designers for each individual teams. We also look for designers with specific client experience. For example, our work is primarily corporate b2b, not retail, so I want a designer that's familiar with the work and will be happy doing it. The same would be true in a retail design shop.

So research the place you want to work, and emphasize the work and skillsets that's relevant to them. We get lots of jack-of-all-trade portfolios. It just tells us that they're mediocre at many things, or don't quite know what they want.

And it's not all about the work. As you gain more seniority in your career, you'll be expected to have more project/client/team management capabilities. You'll command a higher salary, but you'll be expected to shoulder a much bigger burden. Of course, the design work must be excellent, but I want a designer that understands the relevance of their work in relation to the firm and our clients. It's a complicated thing to guage, so that's why it's crucial to meet designers face-to-face. A book drop can get you in the door, but it won't likely take you much further.

But you know, agency life is much different than a small studio. That's the last intangible. Either you'll fit in a 50 person agency, or you'll be miserable in any place with more than 5 people. And no one wants to hire an unhappy designer that needs the work. A seasoned art director will just know when they see you. Nothing you can do about it, but just be aware of it yourself.

On May.22.2003 at 01:17 PM
Nick’s comment is:

In Portland, the market is declining yet again. I would love to believe that things are going well or at least in balance to some degree but they are not. In the last 5 months or so I have seen more companies close shop or execute mass layoffs than I have in a long time. 2001 was bad, 2003 seems to be getting pretty ugly. I see a lot of freelancers and small firms effected by the lack of work.

Oddly, I also see a lot of people moving from San Francisco up to Portland in hopes to find work (mostly, with no luck)... the only justification I can see for it is that the cost of living is cheaper here than in San Francisco (i.e. your unemployment checks will go further here). I would even say that more freelancers are looking for permanent jobs than before because it's too challenging of a market.

As for contracting. There is still some of that around but it doesn't last long. Chances are, if you landed a contract job that they tell you will roll into a full time permanent job, I would be checking the help wanted ads... the job is typically only good for 2 to 6 months.

Best bets are on finding jobs in birck and morter companies where they are not infuenced by the technical market as much as others.

As for the collages with design programs... I checked those out as well.. I found that in 1999 to 2000 they were employeing 100% of their grads in a job that matches their degree... in 2001 to 2002, less than 20% of those grads were able to find jobs related to their degree. That's should speak mountains.

On May.22.2003 at 01:50 PM
felix’s comment is:


Corporate profits down 23 %.

Non-profit sector steadily climbing at 6 % a quarter.

Charities: all hijacked by attorneys or out of work Wall St types

(had SF and NY Aids benefit designs thrown out by corporate politics)

Editorial: still going downhill.

positivity of note: steered a young Portfolio Center grad to job at great firm working on new Elvis release. After three weeks he quit to join non-profit work with Bielenberg. Huh? I guess times are a changin'....

On May.22.2003 at 02:47 PM
Bob’s comment is:

>Also, I'd be interested to hear anyone's stories of how they managed to land a job. What works?

I got on at my place mainly for my programming skills. We're a small shop and I am buddies with the owner's son who also works there. I freelanced for them during college making a few webapps and joined up after graduation a year ago for a pittance because I didn't have any other options. Now that I'm bringing in business, I'm able to get paid reasonably and steer some things into a more design-oriented direction as opposed to straight PHP/MySQL code all day.

So basically, I lucked out.

On May.22.2003 at 03:10 PM
armin’s comment is:

>I disagree a little w/ Armin -- being a dual purpose designer (print+web) isn't always advantageous.

It is for a 4 person firm. And charm, did I mention charm?

print+web+charm=one cool mexican designer

On May.22.2003 at 03:52 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

I disagree a little w/ Armin -- being a dual purpose designer (print+web) isn't always advantageous.

The absolute best web developers/designers I've ever met were the those that had a full understanding of many things. (A programmer with a fine art degree...an interface designer with a degree in classical composition, etc.) A jack of all trades is able to quickly enhance any one of their niche skills, since they have a foundation to work with. Only hiring 'experts' in something tends to--IMHO, of course--bring in people with blinders on.

I understand the reality, of course, that a lot of people want an expert in something specific, but I'm not always sure if it's what they need (though certainly, at times, it is.)

On May.22.2003 at 04:27 PM
armin’s comment is:

>Only hiring 'experts' in something tends to--IMHO, of course--bring in people with blinders on.

I can definitely see what Tan is saying about bringing in a specialty designer beaing a plus. As an employer you know they are going to perform right away with little to no learning curve. When I was looking for a job I got turned down by an editorial firm, a packaging firm and a bunch of interective-heavy firms. So I do agree with Tan's assesment.

And also with yours' Darrel, somebody who can adapt to various fields, markets, technologies is a good asset. More open to new challenges. As opposed to a designer who specializes in retail design and gets a B2B job will probably get burned down the road.

On May.22.2003 at 04:35 PM
Michael’s comment is:

Temperature check from New York. I quit my design job last November, just because it was time after 7 years in one place. With two goals in mind. First to get my design studio going and second to possibly check out other design firms, and to freelance here and there.

Rather grim yet interesting. I freelanced at a few respectable firms, but gigs didn't last long, because of lack of work. Traditional design firms do not hire, at least not to my knowledge. A couple of long-term clients keep me somewhat busy, but finding new clients is difficult, which, of course, has to result in more aggressive marketing and aquisition strategies.

I agree with an earlier comment that there seems to be more work in the interactive arena. I believe, that this is partly due to fixing up web sites, but also, and that is more important, due to a change in the overall perception of online activities. We will not reach the crazyness of the last years anymore, but rather see the development of astonishing electronic applications, that will be accepted and used by many more people.

If you are a packaging designer, chances are you will find a job. It's retail first, that tries to change the appearance of products or introduce new products, so people will buy more. Without people buying stuff, we are not getting anywhere.

Fashion is also a good area. But only experienced designers are needed. I guess, that follows my argument of retail and packaging design.

I think we will not see an improvement for another 8 - 12 months. Pessimistic? Maybe. But, only now do people realize that they are running out of money. Credit card debt needs to be paid, and therefor nothing is left over for nice little gadgets, cars, or whatever strikes their fancy. Now it is about paying the rent.

In regards to landing a desired job: experience in project management is key. Know how to plan a job, control the job, stay in or under budget, have impeccable client skills, and be an energetic team member. Of course, the design must be outstanding.

Just a story: I answered an ad on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago, where somebody was looking for a designer to take over his wife's clients, because she came down with a serious illness. About 20 minutes later I get a generic email back, in which the husband responded, that he had taken the ad off CraigsList, because he received 50 emails in 15 minutes, starting a few minutes after he had placed the ad. Just do the math if he had left the ad up for a day or so, and you get an idea of how many people are looking for work.

On May.22.2003 at 04:46 PM
Sam’s comment is:

>>After three weeks he quit...

Which means there's an opening in New York!

Felix, did you get these figures from a regularly updated source? I'd be interested in a website or publication that has these kinds of numbers and is cheaper (and more easily digested) than the Harvard Business Review. Or was it the Times?

Re specialization/generalization, I see Tan's point and I think in certain cases you have to go with specialization (if anything, it's often reassuring to the client), but depending on scope, being a one-stop-shop that can do everything can mean more client loyalty. It's possible to build a broader relationship with a client, the more different things you do.

If I were hiring (not likely too soon), I would look absolutely look for the most well-rounded people, both experience-wise and skill-wise. And someone with charm, of course.

On May.22.2003 at 05:00 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

after 7 years in one place

Whoa! SEVEN years? Man...I can't comprehend that.

Am I an anomoly by never keeping a job longer than two years?

I'm a government employee now working with people that have been here 30+ years. I simply can't grasp that concept. How do people do that?

On May.22.2003 at 05:01 PM
Michael’s comment is:

Whoa! SEVEN years? Man...I can't comprehend that.

I actually can't comprehend, why some people frequently change their jobs, unless they are under- challenged, bored or dislike their co-workers. The benefit of several years working at the "right" place means to get involved in long-term projects, and to earn the trust to manage very interesting projects. Sometimes one also has to endure a seemingly unpleasant situation/work place only to be rewarded with unexpected and positive results. It also could potentially look good on your resume, because somehow it might make sense for your employer to invest time and money into your professional career. But, of course, it all depends.

On May.22.2003 at 05:15 PM
Tan’s comment is:

I didn't mean to say that it's not advantageous to be a multifaceted designer. It's always good to have skills in either web or print or both.

It's just that the question posed was how best to get a job. From the employer side, I'm always looking for the best fit -- the designer should have the specific skillset I'm looking for, the designer should be familiar with the types of projects we do, and the designer should understand his or her role on the team.

In most cases, a specialized designer will be a more desirable hire for most firms. If I'm a branding firm, I'll look for a brand designer. If I'm a packaging firm, the same. And so on.

Yes, the exception is a small studio -- where it's better if you can wear more than one hat. But as that small studio grows, you can bet that it will eventually become stronger in one area or another, and thus, look for a specialized designer to add to the team.

It's fine if you're a jack of all trade designer. But you'll have the best shot if you know the firm, and cater exactly to what they're looking for. Don't be an answer to a question they never asked, know what I mean?

On May.22.2003 at 05:34 PM
pk’s comment is:

the easiest solution to that is to simply not tell the potential client you can do everything under the sun...until someone starts musing about, say, a promotional video. then trundle out your reel and prove that you've done that work.

i've found that if you're a solo designer who can do a million different things, potentials either 1) think you're pre-selling something you'd like to learn to do, or 2) get freaked out because they simply don't know how to think of you ("is s/he a designer or an illustrator or a typographer, or what?)

halfway through a large job i finished in march, an opportunity popped up for me to create about ten four-by-five-foot images, which i knew i could do. the client had contracted me to handle typography, color specification, and materials (this was an environmental design gig). i had to fight incredibly hard to prove i wasn't just some hack art director trying to live his artist dream. in the long run, i convinced them and came through with flying colors. but it was a bitch of a meeting getting to that point.

On May.22.2003 at 07:04 PM
Damien’s comment is:

San Francisco seems pretty bleak. I don't hear of people still getting laid off. Today I think Silicon Graphics announced cutting 10 per cent of its workforce, but I don't know if that is in the Bay Area.

A few of my friends who have been out of work for a year or two now have finally found positions. Others who are freelancers tend to be in a mix between very busy or not really. It does seem that there isn't very much to go around.

I hear design firms like IDEO, frog or 11inc and Addis are busy and doing alright. Some have even recently been hiring. Wait - they're not now, I've checked.

Business Week states that easier loans, a weaker dollar are helping corporate activity stay relatively boyant. Even though annual reports may not be top of a company's communication budget, there still is activity and retail seems to be strong (though with noticeable down-periods). We have William's Sonoma/Pottery Barn, the Gap and Levis out here - they seem to be keeping a bunch of freelancers/contractors in... jeans/Linens?

It is tough to live out here though, much like in NY perhaps - but those that are still hanging on are die-hards and live in the Bay Area because they love it. They'd have to.

Most of my clients are in the UK so I'm sort of odd. I like to think.

Sam - Business Week might be a usefull resource. I get a subscription, it also once a year has a design special.

On May.22.2003 at 07:05 PM
Michael S’s comment is:

A friend of mine passed me Buckminster Fuller's book titled Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth. When I read some of the comments about specialization above, I felt indulged to quote from Bucky's book.

WE can develop faster and faster running horses as specialists. To do so we inbreed by mating two fast-running horses. By concentrating certain genes the probability of their dominance is increased. But in doing so we breed out or sacrifice general adaptability. Inbreeding and specialization always do away with general adaptability.

On May.22.2003 at 09:22 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

unless they are under- challenged, bored or dislike their co-workers.

Oh. Well, that explains my situation ;o)

The bored thing is the biggie, which actually relates to the discussion of specialties. I, personally, dislike to be typecast as being an expert in one thing, as, at least in the larger firms, that means that is all I end up doing. And then I get bored. I do understand the professional career advantages of hunkering down and focusing on one aspect, but I guess that just isn't for me. To be honest, I can't imagine being a graphic designer for the next 40 years. Gotta keep moving.

I may be a bit naive, but I personally believe that the actual skills of a visual designer (in terms of visual design) are fairly media-transparent. A competant designer understands the difference between trade show banners, packaging, and logo design. Yes, a person can certainly develop any one of those as a specialty, but I wouldn't discount another designer just because they haven't made that decision to focus on one thing. I mean, look at any design annual: you'll see amazing identities coming from branding firms, and you'll see amazing identities from 2 person do-it-all shops.

Given the opportunity, I've seen graphic designers jump mediums and do amazing things.

But, yea, it's the ol' catch 22 in the real world...how can you prove a skill unless someone has given you the opportunity to prove that skill? ;o)

There is a big difference between 'firms' and 'small shops' for sure as well. Many that fit into one don't fit into the other.

On May.22.2003 at 09:40 PM
Tan’s comment is:

I may be a bit naive, but I personally believe that the actual skills of a visual designer (in terms of visual design) are fairly media-transparent. A competant designer understands the difference between trade show banners, packaging, and logo design.

Ok, some last comments about specialization.

I pride myself as a handyman around the house. I retiled and remodeled 2 bathrooms in my house. But does it mean that I'm capable of designing and building an ADA-code bathroom in a public restaurant. Of course not. Why? Because I simply lack the experience and specialized knowledge that's necessary.

Design across media isn't transparent as we all like to think. Our shop does lots of annual reports. The tolerances and discipline that an annual report requires is daunting. It took me years to master, and I'm still learning something new every year. Once in a while, a designer who's never done one before, comes in and tells me that he's more than capable of handling it.

Of course he isn't. I know he has no idea what he's claiming, because he's never done it before.

Can he eventually learn? Of course. But he certainly has a disadvantage against a seasoned, specialized annual report designer.

The same goes for packaging. Designing a bottle shape and labeling for a carbonated beverage practically takes a science degree. Unless a designer is familiar with the process of bottling and its packaging requirements, it's impossible to intuitively compensate -- no matter how good the designer is.

Specialization is also about risk and efficiency. A typesetting mistake on an annual report can financially cripple a design firm. I worked at a firm where an unexperienced designer (not me thank God) caused a $120K reprint. Similarly, an unexperienced mistake on a pharmaceutical packaging design could conceivably kill people.

Designers don't know what they don't know, until they learn it. Yes, it's naiveté -- but we're all guilty of it at some point in our career.

Great designers and great design firms make it look easy. But I assure you, it most certainly isn't in many cases.

On May.22.2003 at 11:23 PM
Ben’s comment is:

Like jonsel, I'm mostly a freelancer because of the down market-and the part-time job I work I got because I was working for them as a freelancer, and became a good match and an asset to them. For many reasons, one being that I take great satisfaction working for myself, I've turned down working full time for them.

I would agree with Bob that few firms in Saint Louis are in the process of hiring right now. There has been a little movement in a firm needing someone to fill a void caused by a departure, but no one really looking for someone new. It seems, at least from my view, that work is picking up. The place where I work part time had their best year last year. It'll be interesting to see when the level of work hits the point where firms need to start hiring again, I would guess 6 months from now, once people are sure that the work will keep on coming.

Freelance work here isn't bad, if you can find the right clients who are weathering the storm, like universities who need a lot of promotion material all the time. Slow in the summer though.

However, hearing the status of the rest of the country is not very heartening-as I'm at the point where I really want to move-there isn't a firm here that I'm dying to work for. I'm also at a point where I need a challenging work environment to grow as a designer.

On May.22.2003 at 11:40 PM
Darrel’s comment is:

I'm capable of designing and building an ADA-code bathroom in a public restaurant. Of course not. Why? Because I simply lack the experience and specialized knowledge that's necessary.

Well, we differ on opinion here, obviously, but I find the absolute best contractors are those that have a good understanding of building sciences in general.

Yes, experience has value. I can't deny that. However, experience doesn't always trump, IMHO. I've been on teams where the 'experienced leads' would slowly kill the project with their 'expertice' which was nothing more than limited opinions on a too-narrow field of focus.

So, I guess I'm saying that neither specialization nor generalization should trump each other.

I worked at a firm where an unexperienced designer (not me thank God) caused a $120K reprint.

I'd call that an inexperienced firm for not having copy editors or a solid enough contract to ensure proper proofing of the AR by the client. ;o) (But now I'm taking this WAY too far off topic... ;o)

Getting back on topic, how many feel/see/think that one of the problems is a glut of graphic designers hitting the market. The state school I went too diluted it's program in recent years with way too many students. Nearly every tech school that advertising on TV offers some sort of 'visual arts' degree. Ad schools are popping up everywhere. Clearly the Art Education field is doing OK, but at a cost to the employable market?

On May.23.2003 at 09:06 AM
Darrel’s comment is:

And excuse my horrific sentence structure and grammar on that last post. *sigh* Where's my copy editor?

On May.23.2003 at 09:08 AM
Tan’s comment is:

I'd call that an inexperienced firm for not having copy editors or a solid enough contract to ensure proper proofing of the AR by the client.

true, true.

I don't mean to sound all pompous and knowing either. We accept new jobs in areas we've never done before on a regular basis. In this economy, diversification is key to survival -- and that means learning to do new things sometimes.

On your school question -- I agree. In Western Washington (Seattle), there are 15 schools that offer design programs. Major universities, small colleges, trade and art schools, you name it.

I remember reading somewhere years ago that there's approx. 6,000 new design graduates a year across the country.

On May.23.2003 at 09:50 AM
Nick’s comment is:

Clearly the Art Education field is doing OK, but at a cost to the employable market?

I agree with this point... as the stats show in my previous comment, it's clear that most schools are in the business of business. And I don't mean just art schools. I can tell you stories of students getting encouraged to take this program or that... often the results are a degree in a field that is over-saturated with competition. This ranges from Graphic Design and Web Design all the way to Firefighting and Finance.

Rule of thumb: if the school is pushing you to take a program that you are not sure it's what you want, run away... run away and never look back.

On May.23.2003 at 12:25 PM